63 replies to this topic

[11.11.00]

ANTdrew, on 10 Aug 2021 - 02:28 AM, said:

I do not support the shipping of these species around the country. Learn to appreciate your local ants.

Yes, argentines best ants. Natural selection agrees. 

They are my local ants after all

Edited by 11.11.00, August 9 2021 - 6:58 PM.

[futurebird]

Normally in a specialized area more people selling would be a good thing. People don't just buy queens, we need supplies, foods, formicariums, and even fungus. If I were selling ants I'd be glad to see the market expanding... and I think cheeto gets that? Which is why I take this seriously. Like I don't think this is a competition thing. Many of us are sincerely freaked out by mass collection.  Hopefully you both get that.

 

 

...

 

it's good that there are more ant vendors. 

your customers will probably care about responsible collection. 

(no one wants to see a repeat of what happened in Borneo)

 

Anyways I'm overwhelmed with my colony of Pogonomyrmex. IDK if about leafcutters. That's a lot of ant. We do have leaf cutters out east. 

 

 

(I just want to add, you know what sells more ants? when people see my ants. I've probably gotten 15 people going on ants that I know in person and more through twitter and such. More is more at this stage. And caring about preserving diversity will impress more people... and it's the right thing to do. )

Edited by futurebird, August 9 2021 - 7:13 PM.

[Otter]

ANTdrew, on 10 Aug 2021 - 02:28 AM, said:

I do not support the shipping of these species around the country. Learn to appreciate your local ants.

I have kept almost every sp that I want to in my state, MA. There is only one genera here that I have not found any individuals of and that is Proceratium. Do you think that at this point I can move on and look for species from outside of my area? I just wanna get your opinion. I already have a permit for and have kept Pogonomyrmex californicus. 

[KadinB]

attagarrett, on 10 Aug 2021 - 01:08 AM, said:

Hey Tyler,

I applaud your dedication and perseverance on these matters. It makes sense as an ant seller you would have great contest to anyone else selling ants, not only legally, but also to your current state of Arizona. As spoken by you “As some of you may know, recently a new ant store has popped up in the US by the name of AntsEmporium. Boasting an impressive selection of ant species with permits to sell them across a wide variety of US states, this seems like an amazing thing for the US antkeeping community. Being able to purchase exotic species legally is what everyone has wanted for so long now.” This is in fact amazing news and it shows that the hobby is moving in the right direction when it comes to rules, regulations, and permitting!

 

First and foremost I would love to address your concerns on the controversial topic of over collecting. We can start with Atta texana. In the wild Atta texana have undoubtedly one of the worst mortality rates of any ants. It is believed to be around a 99.99% failure rate. Which would allude to the need of collecting numerous queens to ensure optimal numbers when rearing in captivity. Furthermore, most of the queens were collected on pavement just before sunrise. These queens stood no chance of founding successfully as the Texas sun would have killed them.

 

Now let's switch topics to your unsubstantiated claims about not only my business but also my collecting. It is crazy to think I still need to justify having permits for collecting. Numerous influential people in the hobby have in fact confirmed my collecting permits as well as my selling permits. I would like to congratulate you on your detective skills and inferences as to where I collected some of my Myrmecocystus queens!  You are 100% correct. I caught Myrmecocystus mexicanus in Arizona and New Mexico along with plenty of other species! It's sad I was not able to show you some amazing spots while I was there despite my offers to you. Your statement “I believe it's relatively clear that AntsEmporium is still very much participating in illegal ant trade, despite becoming a permit holder. “ Is rather contradicting, I have all the necessary permits needed to collect the species that I am after. Something else that baffles me is your continued unsubstantiated claims that I am an illegal collector and or trader. 

If we take a look at your personal/company youtube channel we will see the following.

Now typically I am not one to get involved with other people's business, as what people do in their personal life is none of my concern, but for you Tyler I’ll make an exception. If you look at this screenshot from a video posted to your youtube channel you can clearly see, Myrmecia nigriceps, the Australian Bull Ant. Owning this ant puts you in violation of Title 7 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 330, also known as the USDA-APHIS PPQ-526 guidelines, not to mention the fact the ants were also taken and exported illegally from Australia at some point. Now it is our responsibility as a community to promote ethical ant keeping, and the public keeping of exotic ants is asking for more regulations and even potential fines. 

Is this responsible behavior for the store owner of arthropodantics.com to be doing? Showcasing illegal ants on their companies youtube page? 

 

Lastly, lets condemn these accusations of me being a scammer. 

Since the launching of AntsEmporium, we have helped hundreds of hobbyists obtain healthy ants. I’ve even sold to dozens of Formiculture users in the past week!

As stated above, he received his Acromyrmex in rough shape, instead of not following through on our live arrival guarantee. I immediately informed him of a new replacement being sent out. Is this the actions of a scammer? At AntsEmporium customer satisfaction is our number one priority. And our past, current and repeat customers have been nothing short of satisfied. Further slander of AntsEmporium LLC will result in legal action taken against you. 

 

I would buy from the AntsEmporium if I can see proof of permits and if prices weren't so high. But I know lot's of people have asked about seeing permits and he doesn't show any proof of one. I don't wanna be buying a illegal queen/colonys with no permit possibly with the colony. That's just my thought not trying to start anything here. If you can pls show proof of a permit then your good with the ant community and would probably have more people buying.

Edited by KadinB, August 9 2021 - 8:47 PM.

[Antkeeper01]

KadinB, on 10 Aug 2021 - 04:41 AM, said:

 

attagarrett, on 10 Aug 2021 - 01:08 AM, said:

Hey Tyler,

I applaud your dedication and perseverance on these matters. It makes sense as an ant seller you would have great contest to anyone else selling ants, not only legally, but also to your current state of Arizona. As spoken by you “As some of you may know, recently a new ant store has popped up in the US by the name of AntsEmporium. Boasting an impressive selection of ant species with permits to sell them across a wide variety of US states, this seems like an amazing thing for the US antkeeping community. Being able to purchase exotic species legally is what everyone has wanted for so long now.” This is in fact amazing news and it shows that the hobby is moving in the right direction when it comes to rules, regulations, and permitting!

 

First and foremost I would love to address your concerns on the controversial topic of over collecting. We can start with Atta texana. In the wild Atta texana have undoubtedly one of the worst mortality rates of any ants. It is believed to be around a 99.99% failure rate. Which would allude to the need of collecting numerous queens to ensure optimal numbers when rearing in captivity. Furthermore, most of the queens were collected on pavement just before sunrise. These queens stood no chance of founding successfully as the Texas sun would have killed them.

 

Now let's switch topics to your unsubstantiated claims about not only my business but also my collecting. It is crazy to think I still need to justify having permits for collecting. Numerous influential people in the hobby have in fact confirmed my collecting permits as well as my selling permits. I would like to congratulate you on your detective skills and inferences as to where I collected some of my Myrmecocystus queens!  You are 100% correct. I caught Myrmecocystus mexicanus in Arizona and New Mexico along with plenty of other species! It's sad I was not able to show you some amazing spots while I was there despite my offers to you. Your statement “I believe it's relatively clear that AntsEmporium is still very much participating in illegal ant trade, despite becoming a permit holder. “ Is rather contradicting, I have all the necessary permits needed to collect the species that I am after. Something else that baffles me is your continued unsubstantiated claims that I am an illegal collector and or trader. 

If we take a look at your personal/company youtube channel we will see the following.

Now typically I am not one to get involved with other people's business, as what people do in their personal life is none of my concern, but for you Tyler I’ll make an exception. If you look at this screenshot from a video posted to your youtube channel you can clearly see, Myrmecia nigriceps, the Australian Bull Ant. Owning this ant puts you in violation of Title 7 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 330, also known as the USDA-APHIS PPQ-526 guidelines, not to mention the fact the ants were also taken and exported illegally from Australia at some point. Now it is our responsibility as a community to promote ethical ant keeping, and the public keeping of exotic ants is asking for more regulations and even potential fines. 

Is this responsible behavior for the store owner of arthropodantics.com to be doing? Showcasing illegal ants on their companies youtube page? 

 

Lastly, lets condemn these accusations of me being a scammer. 

Since the launching of AntsEmporium, we have helped hundreds of hobbyists obtain healthy ants. I’ve even sold to dozens of Formiculture users in the past week!

As stated above, he received his Acromyrmex in rough shape, instead of not following through on our live arrival guarantee. I immediately informed him of a new replacement being sent out. Is this the actions of a scammer? At AntsEmporium customer satisfaction is our number one priority. And our past, current and repeat customers have been nothing short of satisfied. Further slander of AntsEmporium LLC will result in legal action taken against you. 

 

I would buy from the AntsEmporium if I can see proof of permits and if prices weren't so high. But I know lot's of people have asked about seeing permits and he doesn't show any proof of one. I don't wanna be buying a illegal queen/colonys with no permit possibly with the colony. That's just my thought not trying to start anything here. If you can pls show proof of a permit then your good with the ant community and would probably have more people buying.

 

personally i think the Acromyrmex are cheap if they are being shipped over state lines

[KadinB]

Antkeeper01, on 10 Aug 2021 - 05:03 AM, said:

 

KadinB, on 10 Aug 2021 - 04:41 AM, said:

 

attagarrett, on 10 Aug 2021 - 01:08 AM, said:

Hey Tyler,

I applaud your dedication and perseverance on these matters. It makes sense as an ant seller you would have great contest to anyone else selling ants, not only legally, but also to your current state of Arizona. As spoken by you “As some of you may know, recently a new ant store has popped up in the US by the name of AntsEmporium. Boasting an impressive selection of ant species with permits to sell them across a wide variety of US states, this seems like an amazing thing for the US antkeeping community. Being able to purchase exotic species legally is what everyone has wanted for so long now.” This is in fact amazing news and it shows that the hobby is moving in the right direction when it comes to rules, regulations, and permitting!

 

First and foremost I would love to address your concerns on the controversial topic of over collecting. We can start with Atta texana. In the wild Atta texana have undoubtedly one of the worst mortality rates of any ants. It is believed to be around a 99.99% failure rate. Which would allude to the need of collecting numerous queens to ensure optimal numbers when rearing in captivity. Furthermore, most of the queens were collected on pavement just before sunrise. These queens stood no chance of founding successfully as the Texas sun would have killed them.

 

Now let's switch topics to your unsubstantiated claims about not only my business but also my collecting. It is crazy to think I still need to justify having permits for collecting. Numerous influential people in the hobby have in fact confirmed my collecting permits as well as my selling permits. I would like to congratulate you on your detective skills and inferences as to where I collected some of my Myrmecocystus queens!  You are 100% correct. I caught Myrmecocystus mexicanus in Arizona and New Mexico along with plenty of other species! It's sad I was not able to show you some amazing spots while I was there despite my offers to you. Your statement “I believe it's relatively clear that AntsEmporium is still very much participating in illegal ant trade, despite becoming a permit holder. “ Is rather contradicting, I have all the necessary permits needed to collect the species that I am after. Something else that baffles me is your continued unsubstantiated claims that I am an illegal collector and or trader. 

If we take a look at your personal/company youtube channel we will see the following.

Now typically I am not one to get involved with other people's business, as what people do in their personal life is none of my concern, but for you Tyler I’ll make an exception. If you look at this screenshot from a video posted to your youtube channel you can clearly see, Myrmecia nigriceps, the Australian Bull Ant. Owning this ant puts you in violation of Title 7 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 330, also known as the USDA-APHIS PPQ-526 guidelines, not to mention the fact the ants were also taken and exported illegally from Australia at some point. Now it is our responsibility as a community to promote ethical ant keeping, and the public keeping of exotic ants is asking for more regulations and even potential fines. 

Is this responsible behavior for the store owner of arthropodantics.com to be doing? Showcasing illegal ants on their companies youtube page? 

 

Lastly, lets condemn these accusations of me being a scammer. 

Since the launching of AntsEmporium, we have helped hundreds of hobbyists obtain healthy ants. I’ve even sold to dozens of Formiculture users in the past week!

As stated above, he received his Acromyrmex in rough shape, instead of not following through on our live arrival guarantee. I immediately informed him of a new replacement being sent out. Is this the actions of a scammer? At AntsEmporium customer satisfaction is our number one priority. And our past, current and repeat customers have been nothing short of satisfied. Further slander of AntsEmporium LLC will result in legal action taken against you. 

 

I would buy from the AntsEmporium if I can see proof of permits and if prices weren't so high. But I know lot's of people have asked about seeing permits and he doesn't show any proof of one. I don't wanna be buying a illegal queen/colonys with no permit possibly with the colony. That's just my thought not trying to start anything here. If you can pls show proof of a permit then your good with the ant community and would probably have more people buying.

 

personally i think the Acromyrmex are cheap if they are being shipped over state lines

 

Yea I do agree with you but if your a kid with no job it's expensive.

[Antkeeper01]

KadinB, on 10 Aug 2021 - 05:04 AM, said:

 

Antkeeper01, on 10 Aug 2021 - 05:03 AM, said:

 

KadinB, on 10 Aug 2021 - 04:41 AM, said:

 

attagarrett, on 10 Aug 2021 - 01:08 AM, said:

Hey Tyler,

I applaud your dedication and perseverance on these matters. It makes sense as an ant seller you would have great contest to anyone else selling ants, not only legally, but also to your current state of Arizona. As spoken by you “As some of you may know, recently a new ant store has popped up in the US by the name of AntsEmporium. Boasting an impressive selection of ant species with permits to sell them across a wide variety of US states, this seems like an amazing thing for the US antkeeping community. Being able to purchase exotic species legally is what everyone has wanted for so long now.” This is in fact amazing news and it shows that the hobby is moving in the right direction when it comes to rules, regulations, and permitting!

 

First and foremost I would love to address your concerns on the controversial topic of over collecting. We can start with Atta texana. In the wild Atta texana have undoubtedly one of the worst mortality rates of any ants. It is believed to be around a 99.99% failure rate. Which would allude to the need of collecting numerous queens to ensure optimal numbers when rearing in captivity. Furthermore, most of the queens were collected on pavement just before sunrise. These queens stood no chance of founding successfully as the Texas sun would have killed them.

 

Now let's switch topics to your unsubstantiated claims about not only my business but also my collecting. It is crazy to think I still need to justify having permits for collecting. Numerous influential people in the hobby have in fact confirmed my collecting permits as well as my selling permits. I would like to congratulate you on your detective skills and inferences as to where I collected some of my Myrmecocystus queens!  You are 100% correct. I caught Myrmecocystus mexicanus in Arizona and New Mexico along with plenty of other species! It's sad I was not able to show you some amazing spots while I was there despite my offers to you. Your statement “I believe it's relatively clear that AntsEmporium is still very much participating in illegal ant trade, despite becoming a permit holder. “ Is rather contradicting, I have all the necessary permits needed to collect the species that I am after. Something else that baffles me is your continued unsubstantiated claims that I am an illegal collector and or trader. 

If we take a look at your personal/company youtube channel we will see the following.

Now typically I am not one to get involved with other people's business, as what people do in their personal life is none of my concern, but for you Tyler I’ll make an exception. If you look at this screenshot from a video posted to your youtube channel you can clearly see, Myrmecia nigriceps, the Australian Bull Ant. Owning this ant puts you in violation of Title 7 of the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 330, also known as the USDA-APHIS PPQ-526 guidelines, not to mention the fact the ants were also taken and exported illegally from Australia at some point. Now it is our responsibility as a community to promote ethical ant keeping, and the public keeping of exotic ants is asking for more regulations and even potential fines. 

Is this responsible behavior for the store owner of arthropodantics.com to be doing? Showcasing illegal ants on their companies youtube page? 

 

Lastly, lets condemn these accusations of me being a scammer. 

Since the launching of AntsEmporium, we have helped hundreds of hobbyists obtain healthy ants. I’ve even sold to dozens of Formiculture users in the past week!

As stated above, he received his Acromyrmex in rough shape, instead of not following through on our live arrival guarantee. I immediately informed him of a new replacement being sent out. Is this the actions of a scammer? At AntsEmporium customer satisfaction is our number one priority. And our past, current and repeat customers have been nothing short of satisfied. Further slander of AntsEmporium LLC will result in legal action taken against you. 

 

I would buy from the AntsEmporium if I can see proof of permits and if prices weren't so high. But I know lot's of people have asked about seeing permits and he doesn't show any proof of one. I don't wanna be buying a illegal queen/colonys with no permit possibly with the colony. That's just my thought not trying to start anything here. If you can pls show proof of a permit then your good with the ant community and would probably have more people buying.

 

personally i think the Acromyrmex are cheap if they are being shipped over state lines

 

Yea I do agree with you but if your a kid with no job it's expensive.

 

me a 13 yo without a job=my total savings=350 usd=keeping ants= good bye money

[PogoQueen]

I have seen his permits, they are real. I was very interested in his permits and wanted to see if I could get the same, which is 100% possible. I had an interview with a member of the USDA who approves permits for the southwest US and everything he said lines up with the species listed on AttaGarrets permits. As for over collecting, I believe it is an appropriate amount for the species considering how big the flights are. So far I have not seen any proof of illegal activity or “scamming” of his customers, and he does seem to treat them very well adding in extra queens or free queens/food. I would recommend this seller to anyone who is interested in buying from him happy hunting!

[ANTdrew]

Here’s a scenario that just came to me:
An experienced keeper in the south east orders a colony of leaf cutters. The colony is given exceptional care and strict containment protocols are kept in place. The colony thrives for a while, but slowly starts to dwindle after a year or so for no exact reason. Certain of the former fungus chambers become unnecessary, so the keeper plans to clean them and remove them to make space. The keeper washes the outworld in hot water and dumps it outside. Unknown to him, a fungus pathogen survives this washing. Atta ants are well capable of dealing with this pathogen, but it hops to local Trachymyrmex colonies. Within a few years Trachymyrmex experiences widespread die-offs.

[FelixTheAnter]

Agreed with Antdrew. There's already such a massive problem with invasive species wrecking havoc on local environments. If we could trust everyone to be uber-responsible with their ants, then it wouldn't be such a risk. But all it takes is one careless person...and there's certainly a lot of those out there.

Edited by FelixTheAnter, August 10 2021 - 2:15 AM.

[AntBoi3030]

In the agreement you supposed to freeze anything that touched them for three days before throwing it away.

[TennesseeAnts]

ANTdrew, on 10 Aug 2021 - 09:43 AM, said:

Here’s a scenario that just came to me:
An experienced keeper in the south east orders a colony of leaf cutters. The colony is given exceptional care and strict containment protocols are kept in place. The colony thrives for a while, but slowly starts to dwindle after a year or so for no exact reason. Certain of the former fungus chambers become unnecessary, so the keeper plans to clean them and remove them to make space. The keeper washes the outworld in hot water and dumps it outside. Unknown to him, a fungus pathogen survives this washing. Atta ants are well capable of dealing with this pathogen, but it hops to local Trachymyrmex colonies. Within a few years Trachymyrmex experiences widespread die-offs.

I'm fairly certain the USDA explains exactly how you're supposed to dispose of them, and it uses freezing for several days. This scenario would never happen legally, and if it did we'd have other problems.

Edit: Also, I'm fairly certain the ants kill any pathogens present in the nest. There shouldn't be anything but the fungus they cultivate in that nest chamber, unless it came from somewhere outside the setup during or after cleaning, but that would be unlikely to harm native ant populations since that would be a pathogen Trachymyrmex septentrionalis should be used to seeing and dealing with accordingly.

Edited by TennesseeAnts, August 10 2021 - 6:42 AM.

[NickAnter]

It is generally unwise to legislate based upon what-ifs. Both sides arguments are flawed here, and frankly, there are a couple rather simple solutions to the problem.

[TennesseeAnts]

NickAnter, on 10 Aug 2021 - 2:16 PM, said:

It is generally unwise to legislate based upon what-ifs. Both sides arguments are flawed here, and frankly, there are a couple rather simple solutions to the problem.

While I generally agree, could you elaborate?

[NickAnter]

On the first statement: precedent is generally required in a specific way to make a law; we don't see laws made against having a barbecue because it could explode and kill innocent civilians with shrapenel for example.

On the second: One side continues to assume, and the other continues to fail to respond to some assumptions.

On the third: One side could simply show proof of permit, and at least respond to the Acromyrmex issue. The other side could make less assumptions, however substantiated they may be.

[ANTdrew]

This whole thing reminds me of the Tiger King.

[yaboiseth]

What I'm seeing here is two company owners arguing over legalities.

Edit: well, wild assumptions and legalities..

Edited by yaboiseth, August 10 2021 - 7:52 AM.

[ANTdrew]

I don’t own any company, but I denounce this. I have a bad feeling about it all.

[yaboiseth]

ANTdrew, on 10 Aug 2021 - 3:52 PM, said:

I don’t own any company, but I denounce this. I have a bad feeling about it all.

I do too. It's not a good look.

[Kaelwizard]

ANTdrew, on 10 Aug 2021 - 3:52 PM, said:

I don’t own any company, but I denounce this. I have a bad feeling about it all.

Yeah I'm not sure if I should take a side or not at this point. I don't think I will.