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Novomessor? Ants_Dakota? Ant nests? Confusing?


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#61 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted November 13 2020 - 7:20 AM

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I already have many founding nests for these, but my ultimate plan will change the world! its basically just two phalanx with two sides connected to each other which allows around 200-300 ants I think to live in it. I plan on connecting more as time goes on because these are water tower gals so what do you guys think?
Also i've been getting mixed messages, do they need hibernation or not ?

I really would not advise you go through with this. If you're caught the fine can be something like $5k. Not to mention the USDA is finally starting to trust us antkeepers with inter-state selling of ants (without needing permits that is). If you do for some reason decide to buy these ants, please, for the sake of all that is holy, don't get caught.

 

Edit: Also, just fyi, there's plenty of ants in VA that are very similar to Novomessor. The native Aphaenogaster are just as cool, and are legal to keep....

 

Edit #2: Here's a couple pictures of two ants. Can you tell which one's which?

 

OIP.zVdxTB5vTgaex4llpRTNyQHaFk?w=243&h=1

 

OIP.Mu0T_ujuTQHyqV-LqJJiFAHaFj?w=227&h=1

 

the upper one’s novomessor isn't it? its more leggy and has that big spike (which is what i like about them) 

what ant is the lower one? it looks deceivingly similar.

 

Yes, Novomessor do have a fairly impressive propodeal spine, don't they? The bottom ant is a VA native, Aphaenogaster picea. I love my colony, and they're very similar to Novomessor. They were once even the same genus, and collect seeds and pieces of fungi.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Novomessor and Aphaenogaster are shockingly different. I've kept 7 species of Aphaenogaster and none of them can even compare to Novomessor. Without even mentioning that Novomessor nanitics are larger than mature Aphaenogaster lamellidens workers (largest eastern Aphaenogaster) they also differ in pretty much every other way.

Novomessor are mass-recruiters, have social stomachs, grow insanely quickly. Aphaenogaster are primarily solitary foragers, have no social stomach, and don't grow particularly fast. And that really just scratches the surface.

I don't want to sound like I'm supporting illegal trade, but anybody who does import ants illegally knows the risks. Not to mention the risks themselves are embarrassingly low. The USDA isn't "out to get" antkeepers. Unless a person is specifically reported for having exotic ants with a detailed report, a name and address, and possibly other info, there's no way the USDA would be able to find them and/or "catch" them. If the guy wants to keep Novomessor, let him do so. Clearly himself and the seller are fine with it, and if so that's their decision to make.

The illegal ant trade debate is the biggest issue in the hobby, and in my opinion the only way to resolve it is to ignore it. We tend to forget that isopods have the exact same restrictions by the USDA that ants have. When was the last time you heard an isopod hobbyist complaining about importing exotic isopods. When was the last time you heard about somebody getting "busted" for having exotic isopods. There is absolutely no chance that this guy importing Novomessor to Virginia could cause any harm to his ecosystem, as a desert species would be entirely unfit to survive in the Eastern US. There is no risk of him doing this other than the chance that somebody finds out his address and reports him to the USDA. If you see somebody posting about an exotic species, it's not your "duty" to go immediately to the comments and blast them for "illegal trade". Just pretend they have a permit or something for your own peace of mind and move on. It's not worth any of our time to keep making these argument threads out of nowhere just to discuss the same issue, make no valid points ever, change nobody's mind, and then do it all again a month later. It's getting ridiculous.

 

I am simply saying there's native alternatives. Morphologically, both genera are fairly similar, though. 



#62 Offline Spazmops - Posted November 13 2020 - 7:24 AM

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I agree with ANTdrew. If you're doing something illegal, maybe don't make a post about it on a public site, especially if you want to keep it hush-hush. Honestly if you don't want people telling you what you're doing is illegal, why did you make a post about Novomessor in Virginia in the first place? Most of us aren't going to ignore the fact that it's illegal, because you getting caught would result in repercussions for you, the ants, and potentially the entire hobby. Are these ants worth potentially paying the huge fine and then having the ants confiscated? 


  • TennesseeAnts, B_rad0806, DDD101DDD and 4 others like this

Co-owner and founder of Mountain Myrmeculture and The Menagerie Discord Server

Ants I have:

1 Formica fusca group- 0 workers

1 Tetramorium immigrans colony-20 workers

1 Dorymyrmex insanus- 1 queen, used to have workers

 

1 large P. occidentalis colony- around 50 workers, plenty of brood

 

 


#63 Offline MinigunL5 - Posted November 13 2020 - 7:40 AM

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I agree with ANTdrew. If you're doing something illegal, maybe don't make a post about it on a public site, especially if you want to keep it hush-hush. Honestly if you don't want people telling you what you're doing is illegal, why did you make a post about Novomessor in Virginia in the first place? Most of us aren't going to ignore the fact that it's illegal, because you getting caught would result in repercussions for you, the ants, and potentially the entire hobby. Are these ants worth potentially paying the huge fine and then having the ants confiscated?

Just lie and say you have a permit XD

#64 Offline Spazmops - Posted November 13 2020 - 7:44 AM

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I agree with ANTdrew. If you're doing something illegal, maybe don't make a post about it on a public site, especially if you want to keep it hush-hush. Honestly if you don't want people telling you what you're doing is illegal, why did you make a post about Novomessor in Virginia in the first place? Most of us aren't going to ignore the fact that it's illegal, because you getting caught would result in repercussions for you, the ants, and potentially the entire hobby. Are these ants worth potentially paying the huge fine and then having the ants confiscated?

Just lie and say you have a permit XD

 

If they had, none of us would know they were lying either. It almost feels like they're flaunting the fact that this is illegal and could be bad for the hobby.


  • TennesseeAnts, Ants_Dakota and Devi like this

Co-owner and founder of Mountain Myrmeculture and The Menagerie Discord Server

Ants I have:

1 Formica fusca group- 0 workers

1 Tetramorium immigrans colony-20 workers

1 Dorymyrmex insanus- 1 queen, used to have workers

 

1 large P. occidentalis colony- around 50 workers, plenty of brood

 

 


#65 Offline KitsAntVa - Posted November 13 2020 - 8:04 AM

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I agree with ANTdrew. If you're doing something illegal, maybe don't make a post about it on a public site, especially if you want to keep it hush-hush. Honestly if you don't want people telling you what you're doing is illegal, why did you make a post about Novomessor in Virginia in the first place? Most of us aren't going to ignore the fact that it's illegal, because you getting caught would result in repercussions for you, the ants, and potentially the entire hobby. Are these ants worth potentially paying the huge fine and then having the ants confiscated?

Just lie and say you have a permit XD

 

If they had, none of us would know they were lying either. It almost feels like they're flaunting the fact that this is illegal and could be bad for the hobby.

 

That's not what I'm meaning it to be and if it seems that way I am sorry.


We don’t talk about that

#66 Offline KitsAntVa - Posted November 13 2020 - 8:15 AM

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I already have many founding nests for these, but my ultimate plan will change the world! its basically just two phalanx with two sides connected to each other which allows around 200-300 ants I think to live in it. I plan on connecting more as time goes on because these are water tower gals so what do you guys think?
Also i've been getting mixed messages, do they need hibernation or not ?

I really would not advise you go through with this. If you're caught the fine can be something like $5k. Not to mention the USDA is finally starting to trust us antkeepers with inter-state selling of ants (without needing permits that is). If you do for some reason decide to buy these ants, please, for the sake of all that is holy, don't get caught.

 

Edit: Also, just fyi, there's plenty of ants in VA that are very similar to Novomessor. The native Aphaenogaster are just as cool, and are legal to keep....

 

Edit #2: Here's a couple pictures of two ants. Can you tell which one's which?

 

OIP.zVdxTB5vTgaex4llpRTNyQHaFk?w=243&h=1

 

OIP.Mu0T_ujuTQHyqV-LqJJiFAHaFj?w=227&h=1

 

the upper one’s novomessor isn't it? its more leggy and has that big spike (which is what i like about them) 

what ant is the lower one? it looks deceivingly similar.

 

Yes, Novomessor do have a fairly impressive propodeal spine, don't they? The bottom ant is a VA native, Aphaenogaster picea. I love my colony, and they're very similar to Novomessor. They were once even the same genus, and collect seeds and pieces of fungi.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Novomessor and Aphaenogaster are shockingly different. I've kept 7 species of Aphaenogaster and none of them can even compare to Novomessor. Without even mentioning that Novomessor nanitics are larger than mature Aphaenogaster lamellidens workers (largest eastern Aphaenogaster) they also differ in pretty much every other way.

Novomessor are mass-recruiters, have social stomachs, grow insanely quickly. Aphaenogaster are primarily solitary foragers, have no social stomach, and don't grow particularly fast. And that really just scratches the surface.

I don't want to sound like I'm supporting illegal trade, but anybody who does import ants illegally knows the risks. Not to mention the risks themselves are embarrassingly low. The USDA isn't "out to get" antkeepers. Unless a person is specifically reported for having exotic ants with a detailed report, a name and address, and possibly other info, there's no way the USDA would be able to find them and/or "catch" them. If the guy wants to keep Novomessor, let him do so. Clearly himself and the seller are fine with it, and if so that's their decision to make.

The illegal ant trade debate is the biggest issue in the hobby, and in my opinion the only way to resolve it is to ignore it. We tend to forget that isopods have the exact same restrictions by the USDA that ants have. When was the last time you heard an isopod hobbyist complaining about importing exotic isopods. When was the last time you heard about somebody getting "busted" for having exotic isopods. There is absolutely no chance that this guy importing Novomessor to Virginia could cause any harm to his ecosystem, as a desert species would be entirely unfit to survive in the Eastern US. There is no risk of him doing this other than the chance that somebody finds out his address and reports him to the USDA. If you see somebody posting about an exotic species, it's not your "duty" to go immediately to the comments and blast them for "illegal trade". Just pretend they have a permit or something for your own peace of mind and move on. It's not worth any of our time to keep making these argument threads out of nowhere just to discuss the same issue, make no valid points ever, change nobody's mind, and then do it all again a month later. It's getting ridiculous.

 

Also if they got out they would immediately die sadly, because ima bad boy  :facepalm: I'm keeping them in apartment so they would immediately die from the liquid they put down.


Edited by KitsAntVa, November 13 2020 - 8:16 AM.

We don’t talk about that

#67 Offline MinigunL5 - Posted November 13 2020 - 12:42 PM

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I agree with ANTdrew. If you're doing something illegal, maybe don't make a post about it on a public site, especially if you want to keep it hush-hush. Honestly if you don't want people telling you what you're doing is illegal, why did you make a post about Novomessor in Virginia in the first place? Most of us aren't going to ignore the fact that it's illegal, because you getting caught would result in repercussions for you, the ants, and potentially the entire hobby. Are these ants worth potentially paying the huge fine and then having the ants confiscated?

Just lie and say you have a permit XD

 

If they had, none of us would know they were lying either. It almost feels like they're flaunting the fact that this is illegal and could be bad for the hobby.

 

It was a joke



#68 Offline Spazmops - Posted November 13 2020 - 1:02 PM

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I agree with ANTdrew. If you're doing something illegal, maybe don't make a post about it on a public site, especially if you want to keep it hush-hush. Honestly if you don't want people telling you what you're doing is illegal, why did you make a post about Novomessor in Virginia in the first place? Most of us aren't going to ignore the fact that it's illegal, because you getting caught would result in repercussions for you, the ants, and potentially the entire hobby. Are these ants worth potentially paying the huge fine and then having the ants confiscated?

Just lie and say you have a permit XD

 

If they had, none of us would know they were lying either. It almost feels like they're flaunting the fact that this is illegal and could be bad for the hobby.

 

It was a joke

 

I know. I'm saying they could have easily dodged this entire discussion by lying and saying they had a permit. 


  • B_rad0806, Swirlysnowflake and MinigunL5 like this

Co-owner and founder of Mountain Myrmeculture and The Menagerie Discord Server

Ants I have:

1 Formica fusca group- 0 workers

1 Tetramorium immigrans colony-20 workers

1 Dorymyrmex insanus- 1 queen, used to have workers

 

1 large P. occidentalis colony- around 50 workers, plenty of brood

 

 


#69 Offline Kaelwizard - Posted November 14 2020 - 5:18 PM

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We are not the police lmao. If they illegally get ants, they illegally get ants, if they get fined, they get fined. It’s not up to us what they want to do. If they want to do that, they can. It’s their choice.

Edited by Kaelwizard, November 14 2020 - 5:19 PM.


#70 Offline Guest_StrickyAnts_* - Posted November 14 2020 - 5:56 PM

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I agree with you. I just don't want stricter rules to the hobby. When you illegal trade you are ruining the hobby for others if you get caught or they get out.

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#71 Offline MinigunL5 - Posted November 14 2020 - 6:04 PM

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I agree with you. I just don't want stricter rules to the hobby. When you illegal trade you are ruining the hobby for others if you get caught or they get out.

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Tbh I don't think anything the rules would change or anything bad would happen if someone gets caught. Plus the chances of people getting caught are low



#72 Offline Guest_StrickyAnts_* - Posted November 14 2020 - 6:12 PM

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The rules would change if it keeps going on. Getting caught is actually farily easy.



#73 Offline AnthonyP163 - Posted November 14 2020 - 6:35 PM

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The rules would change if it keeps going on. Getting caught is actually farily easy.

'getting caught' is not fairly easy, as to my knowledge, only two people have ever been. Both were not your average 'illegal traders' and were more like suppliers, importing from Asia and distributing ants all over the country. The USDA is not out to get a lone antkeeper buying a colony or two from a different state, they're more concerned with consistent suppliers/importers. 

 

I agree with you. I just don't want stricter rules to the hobby. When you illegal trade you are ruining the hobby for others if you get caught or they get out.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

The rules on the hobby aren't going to get stricter. And also, if they did get stricter, what would change...? 


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#74 Offline Guest_StrickyAnts_* - Posted November 14 2020 - 7:19 PM

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They would change transportation laws of ants. Having a mileage distance instead of state is my guess.

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#75 Offline AnthonyP163 - Posted November 14 2020 - 7:22 PM

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They would change transportation laws of ants. Having a mileage distance instead of state is my guess.

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I don't think they'd do that at all. They're not as concerned about the antkeeping hobby as you might think.


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#76 Offline Kaelwizard - Posted November 15 2020 - 8:37 AM

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The rules would change if it keeps going on. Getting caught is actually farily easy.

'getting caught' is not fairly easy, as to my knowledge, only two people have ever been. Both were not your average 'illegal traders' and were more like suppliers, importing from Asia and distributing ants all over the country. The USDA is not out to get a lone antkeeper buying a colony or two from a different state, they're more concerned with consistent suppliers/importers. 

 

I agree with you. I just don't want stricter rules to the hobby. When you illegal trade you are ruining the hobby for others if you get caught or they get out.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

The rules on the hobby aren't going to get stricter. And also, if they did get stricter, what would change...? 

 

I agree. I don't think one more person getting caught would change anything.


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#77 Offline Manitobant - Posted November 15 2020 - 7:31 PM

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I wouldn't post illegal stuff on formiculture as the people here are generally very pro native. You could end up getting banned from the ants and antkeeping discord because of it (like i was). If you have to, say its a similar genus (like aphaenogaster) or post to a more exotic friendly place like the antkeeping and ethology discord.

Edited by Manitobant, November 15 2020 - 7:32 PM.

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#78 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted November 15 2020 - 9:54 PM

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I wouldn't post illegal stuff on formiculture as the people here are generally very pro native. You could end up getting banned from the ants and antkeeping discord because of it (like i was). If you have to, say its a similar genus (like aphaenogaster) or post to a more exotic friendly place like the antkeeping and ethology discord.


No one here really cares about the native/exotic issue that I know of (at least as long as its legal).

#79 Offline Ants_Dakota - Posted November 16 2020 - 6:13 AM

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all i hope is that the colony would not escape. what would happen then? it can be fairly easy if you are not experienced enough. if that were my colony, i would feel like i am ruining the natural environment.


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#80 Offline Kaelwizard - Posted November 16 2020 - 6:30 AM

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all i hope is that the colony would not escape. what would happen then? it can be fairly easy if you are not experienced enough. if that were my colony, i would feel like i am ruining the natural environment.

They would die though. The environment is not suitable for them.


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