147 replies to this topic

[jushi]

Six pages of this... can we just let this thread die? At this point everything that can be said has been said.

[TheMicroPlanet]

Wonder if it should be possible for the followers of a topic to be able to vote to shut down a thread.

[Serafine]

This guy just exposed himself for illegally importing ants... that was painful to read...

No, it's been a known thing, also he apparently disposed of the colony. https://www.formicul...mental-journal/

If it wasn't Wasmannia that's actually good news because those things can really smash the place when they get a foothold anywhere.

[Vendayn]

I'll throw in my two cents.

 

personally don't care what someone else does.

 

Also personally wouldn't risk keeping an illegal ant (or any other pet/animal/insect etc). The US wouldn't give someone like me a slap on the wrist, they'd make an example out of me. 20+ years more likely some can get and have gotten for illegally getting a pet (not just ants), longer than murdering someone or being a pedo. Its not worth it at all to import ants and take the chance of decades in prison AND a massive fine.

 

But if someone wants to take that chance more power to them, personally don't feel like losing 20 years of my life in prison because of ants lol

 

Unless I was justin beiber. Then I can import a monkey, abandon it...and...did he even get a slap on the wrist? Either way even if it was a slap on the wrist punishment most people would still be in prison lol

Edited by Vendayn, May 14 2020 - 4:45 PM.

[BugFinder]

Wonder if it should be possible for the followers of a topic to be able to vote to shut down a thread.

Why?  If you don't like a topic, don't read it or respond to it.   

 

What's with the desire to control everyone elses behavior?   if you don't like it, go do something else.  Why do you need to control what everyone else does?

[TheMicroPlanet]

 

Wonder if it should be possible for the followers of a topic to be able to vote to shut down a thread.

Why?  If you don't like a topic, don't read it or respond to it.   

 

What's with the desire to control everyone elses behavior?   if you don't like it, go do something else.  Why do you need to control what everyone else does?

 

I was just postulating an idea... I wasn't saying whether or not I liked this topic. It seems like other people are very ardent with their opinions on this topic, so I thought bringing that up would be an interesting thing to be discussed in an intellectual manner. Guess I was wrong...

 

Also, why do you refer to me as some kind of control freak? I might be missing something, but that appears to be what you just told me. Can you clarify?

 

From where I stand, your response seemed kind of aggressive. I hope that wasn't the case; I don't think it was.

Edited by TheMicroPlanet, May 14 2020 - 5:18 PM.

[BugFinder]

 

 

Wonder if it should be possible for the followers of a topic to be able to vote to shut down a thread.

Why?  If you don't like a topic, don't read it or respond to it.   

 

What's with the desire to control everyone elses behavior?   if you don't like it, go do something else.  Why do you need to control what everyone else does?

 

I was just postulating an idea... I wasn't saying whether or not I liked this topic. It seems like other people are very ardent with their opinions on this topic, so I thought bringing that up would be an interesting thing to be discussed in an intellectual manner. Guess I was wrong...

 

Also, why do you refer to me as some kind of control freak? I might be missing something, but that appears to be what you just told me. Can you clarify?

 

From where I stand, your response seemed kind of aggressive. I hope that wasn't the case; I don't think it was.

 

 

Not just you, a several people were suggesting others shouldn't post to this thread any more, and I include them in that question.  I replied to yours because yours was the most extreme, asking for someone to remove the thread entirely, instead of appealing to people to not participate in a discussion they would otherwise, because the requester doesn't like the dialogue.

 

The funny thing is the irony of a person posting a message asking everyone to let the thread die by getting buried by new comments is actually bumpting the thread back to the top again so more people will see it and respond to it.

 

As for the aggresion part, that's a great example of what i'm talking about.   It's about self responsibility.   If you dontl ike a thread, instead of ignoring it, we request others change their behavior so that we won't have to see it pop up in the latest posts menu.   

 

If a faceless stranger says something that offends us, or "sounds aggressive",, instead of taking responsiblity for our own insecurities, we tend to blame the stranger for offending us, as if that stranger has any control over what does, or does not offend us.   I'm not suggesting you went quite that far in this instance, but I've seen it happen over and over again, here and elsewhere on the internet,  

 

It's all part of the same pattern of behavior.  Shirk responsibility, blame others, expect others to take responsiblity for what should be our responsiblity.  

 

It fits the larger pattern of what's happening in our country right now, in politics and other areas.

 

"I don't like homosexuality, so other people shouldn't be able to marry people of the same sex"

 

"I don't like gun ownership, so you shouldn't be able to buy a gun"

 

"I don't like abortions, so you shoudn't be able to get one"

 

"I don't like red hats, so if you are seeing wearing one, you should get punched in the face"

 

"I don't like Islam, so you shoudn't be able to build a mosque in my town"

 

"I don't like marijuana, so you shouldn't be able to consume it"

 

if we focus on what we can control, and allow others to live their lives the way that makes them the happiest, and we don't walk around so thin skinned that noises a stranger makes wtih their mouth can provoke a violent reaction, or an emotional response in us, this will be a much better place for all of us.  We can choose to ignore all of the things we don't like, and don't want to clutter up our lives.   But by raging against the things we don't like, we clutter our minds and our lives with them.

 

It wasn't directed at you personally, yours was just the best example posted to this thread.  But It's been a pretty common theme around here lately, and it's been way too common in the US lately.

[AntsDakota]

*Deleted* 

Edited by AntsDakota, May 14 2020 - 6:32 PM.

[AntsDakota]

Guys although I don't condone illegal trading, I don't think it's a good idea to literally force the pro native mindset down everyone's throats.

Um, aren't you the guy who imported a colony of Wasmannia auropunctata to Canada and is keeping Pogonomyrmex badius?
Just asking.

Not to mention Messor......... https://www.formicul...eird/?hl=messor

[Manitobant]

Guys although I don't condone illegal trading, I don't think it's a good idea to literally force the pro native mindset down everyone's throats.

Um, aren't you the guy who imported a colony of Wasmannia auropunctata to Canada and is keeping Pogonomyrmex badius?
Just asking.

Not to mention Messor......... https://www.formicul...eird/?hl=messor

well I happen to live in one of the coldest major cities on the planet. NOTHING can survive -40 degrees Celsius, I've even had ants die in my backpack on the way home from the airport (more of those tetra similimmum)

[CheetoLord02]

Exotic organisms often need several decades to establish a basic self-sufficient population that is capable of expanding beyond their initial range.

Rarely an exotic organism is an instant conqueror (unless it meets a native ecosystem that's already mostly wiped out, like german rivers in the 60s and 70s) but leave them unchecked for too long and they may grow into an uncontrollable force.

Surely you realized just now that by defending your own exotic ants you just completely destroyed your entire argument. Just like that. "Exotic organisms often need several decades to establish a basic self-sufficient population that is capable of expanding beyond their initial range." So what you're saying is that Atta couldn't establish themselves in Washington. Great argument.

Also, before you go dig up more old screenshots, I'm pretty sure EVERYONE knows I have exotic ants, and to be honest I'm kind of sick of hiding it. I wouldn't have to be so secretive about my ants if it wasn't for all of you law enforcement wannabes that are plaguing this community. I literally have a Pseudomyrmex journal here on FC because I'm tired of not being able to talk about the ants that I want to talk about. I'm not gonna say it's right to keep exotic ants, but I understand the risks that I face, and I think it's worth it to be able to keep the cool ants that I want to keep. I don't distribute the ants to anyone else, I keep them to myself, and I don't even really talk about them all that much because I really don't want to get reported by one of you. If I want to keep exotic ants, it's really none of your business. You aren't the USDA, you're just a communist brony who lives an entire ocean away from me. So please, stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours.

[TheMicroPlanet]

 

 

 

Wonder if it should be possible for the followers of a topic to be able to vote to shut down a thread.

Why?  If you don't like a topic, don't read it or respond to it.   

 

What's with the desire to control everyone elses behavior?   if you don't like it, go do something else.  Why do you need to control what everyone else does?

 

I was just postulating an idea... I wasn't saying whether or not I liked this topic. It seems like other people are very ardent with their opinions on this topic, so I thought bringing that up would be an interesting thing to be discussed in an intellectual manner. Guess I was wrong...

 

Also, why do you refer to me as some kind of control freak? I might be missing something, but that appears to be what you just told me. Can you clarify?

 

From where I stand, your response seemed kind of aggressive. I hope that wasn't the case; I don't think it was.

 

 

Not just you, a several people were suggesting others shouldn't post to this thread any more, and I include them in that question.  I replied to yours because yours was the most extreme, asking for someone to remove the thread entirely, instead of appealing to people to not participate in a discussion they would otherwise, because the requester doesn't like the dialogue.

 

The funny thing is the irony of a person posting a message asking everyone to let the thread die by getting buried by new comments is actually bumpting the thread back to the top again so more people will see it and respond to it.

 

As for the aggresion part, that's a great example of what i'm talking about.   It's about self responsibility.   If you dontl ike a thread, instead of ignoring it, we request others change their behavior so that we won't have to see it pop up in the latest posts menu.   

 

If a faceless stranger says something that offends us, or "sounds aggressive",, instead of taking responsiblity for our own insecurities, we tend to blame the stranger for offending us, as if that stranger has any control over what does, or does not offend us.   I'm not suggesting you went quite that far in this instance, but I've seen it happen over and over again, here and elsewhere on the internet,  

 

It's all part of the same pattern of behavior.  Shirk responsibility, blame others, expect others to take responsiblity for what should be our responsiblity.  

 

It fits the larger pattern of what's happening in our country right now, in politics and other areas.

 

"I don't like homosexuality, so other people shouldn't be able to marry people of the same sex"

 

"I don't like gun ownership, so you shouldn't be able to buy a gun"

 

"I don't like abortions, so you shoudn't be able to get one"

 

"I don't like red hats, so if you are seeing wearing one, you should get punched in the face"

 

"I don't like Islam, so you shoudn't be able to build a mosque in my town"

 

"I don't like marijuana, so you shouldn't be able to consume it"

 

if we focus on what we can control, and allow others to live their lives the way that makes them the happiest, and we don't walk around so thin skinned that noises a stranger makes wtih their mouth can provoke a violent reaction, or an emotional response in us, this will be a much better place for all of us.  We can choose to ignore all of the things we don't like, and don't want to clutter up our lives.   But by raging against the things we don't like, we clutter our minds and our lives with them.

 

It wasn't directed at you personally, yours was just the best example posted to this thread.  But It's been a pretty common theme around here lately, and it's been way too common in the US lately.

 

Glad I could be a useful example, I guess... but in some cases, "I don't like x, so you shouldn't y" is actually very sensible. "I don't like murder, people should be prohibited from murdering.", or "I don't like kidnapping, people shouldn't be allowed to kidnap". Now, i'm not saying laws should be made on personal preference, because that'd ruin a lot of things.

 

The bit about self responsibility makes sense; that's pretty good advice. But let's not be ignorant to everything we don't like. I mean, the world is full of things no one likes; and most of those things are serious issues that need to be solved. We can't just ignore them and pretend they don't exist, because that's self deceit. But if, ultimately, we'd be better off ignoring something, than go for it.

 

That being said, i'm probably better off ignoring this thread. Let the people who have some amount of knowledge concerning this topic discuss it.

[Temperateants]

 

Exotic organisms often need several decades to establish a basic self-sufficient population that is capable of expanding beyond their initial range.

Rarely an exotic organism is an instant conqueror (unless it meets a native ecosystem that's already mostly wiped out, like german rivers in the 60s and 70s) but leave them unchecked for too long and they may grow into an uncontrollable force.

Surely you realized just now that by defending your own exotic ants you just completely destroyed your entire argument. Just like that. "Exotic organisms often need several decades to establish a basic self-sufficient population that is capable of expanding beyond their initial range." So what you're saying is that Atta couldn't establish themselves in Washington. Great argument.

Also, before you go dig up more old screenshots, I'm pretty sure EVERYONE knows I have exotic ants, and to be honest I'm kind of sick of hiding it. I wouldn't have to be so secretive about my ants if it wasn't for all of you law enforcement wannabes that are plaguing this community. I literally have a Pseudomyrmex journal here on FC because I'm tired of not being able to talk about the ants that I want to talk about. I'm not gonna say it's right to keep exotic ants, but I understand the risks that I face, and I think it's worth it to be able to keep the cool ants that I want to keep. I don't distribute the ants to anyone else, I keep them to myself, and I don't even really talk about them all that much because I really don't want to get reported by one of you. If I want to keep exotic ants, it's really none of your business. You aren't the USDA, you're just a communist brony who lives an entire ocean away from me. So please, stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours.

 

That's great, I'm sure you are a competent ant keeper who can handle those ants. The problem in my opinion isn't people like you. It's people who are driven by money or people who are more willing to smuggle ants then look for queens in their neighborhood. People who don't care about the ants or ecosystem and just want personal gain. A 9 year old AC fanboy who illegally obtains solenopsis and a smuggler on GAN obviously don't care. You can't just violate rules because "you have a logical reason to be able to get around them" because then what's the point, everyone can do that. It's setting a bad example and undermining the rule. Some exceptions just can't be made. Sure, this thread has gotten out of hand but original verdict, OP bought ants illegally and obviously couldn't keep them alive. Not much you can do about it, sure, it's a crappy thing to do but unless they import solenopsis you can then report them.

[AntsDakota]

 

 

 

Guys although I don't condone illegal trading, I don't think it's a good idea to literally force the pro native mindset down everyone's throats.

Um, aren't you the guy who imported a colony of Wasmannia auropunctata to Canada and is keeping Pogonomyrmex badius?
Just asking.

Not to mention Messor......... https://www.formicul...eird/?hl=messor

well I happen to live in one of the coldest major cities on the planet. NOTHING can survive -40 degrees Celsius, I've even had ants die in my backpack on the way home from the airport (more of those tetra similimmum)

I don't see how this has anything to do with importing Messor..........

[dspdrew]

Why isn't he banned

 

Because he hasn't broken any rules.

 

We don't arbitrarily ban people here. The software bans them based on the amount, and frequency of warnings they receive.

[dspdrew]

Nice ant colony you have there...

 

Why don't you have a seat...

[drtrmiller]

The risk of harm by introduced species to agricultural systems sustaining our critical food supply is not only very real, but it is also well studied.  To my knowledge, there is no documented case of ant keeping hobbyists having caused any type of invasive ant species introduction.  This is not to say it couldn't happen, but only that ants are simply not very durable, and many require very narrow environmental parameters specific to certain bioregions in order to survive, thrive, and reproduce.

 

Instead, virtually all exotic tramp ant species were introduced to foreign regions by human activity on a massive scale, through exchange of agricultural and similar products.  It is therefore quite possible that most of the invasive species that could thrive in the U.S. have already done so, and there may not be that many more opportunities for new introductions.  For example, Solenopsis invicta was believed to have been transported on ocean liners transporting agricultural products from South America nearly a century ago (1940).  Mass commercial transportation is how they spread, and it is consequently nearly impossible to forever prevent the spread of every single problem organism.  It is infinitely more likely that the next plant pest introduction will be ushered in through the movement of billions of humans via planes, trains, automobiles, or legitimate streams of commerce, rather than by some underground ant smuggler.

 

It is also for these reasons that all applicable federal legislation in the United States deals almost exclusively with the interstate movement of these plant products.  For decades, plants have been treated for pests and quarantined when they are moved from one state to another, or imported from abroad.  Even dead wood imported from abroad must be fumigated and quarantined before being allowed entry into the US.  The main risk to US commerce comes from the movement of enormous volume of goods—not a single queen ant that has a near 100% probability of a quick death from the moment she enters the care of an inexperienced hobbyist.

Who is to say an Atta species could even thrive in all the U.S. states?  Isn't there a biological reason their range is limited to Texas and Louisiana?  Why isn't Europe infested with Atta, since they have been sold to hobbyists there for the past decades or longer?

Notwithstanding these facts, who here has the authority to actually do anything about purported "illegal activity" other than post comments like a lunatic mall cop on the internet?  How does someone asking for help keeping ants affect you personally?  Are your feelings hurt that they allegedly "broke the law" and get to keep a cool ant species that you, a model citizen, can only dream of?  Are you that much a raging environmentalist that you chain yourself to other people and stand in the road to prevent the construction of pipelines and other infrastructure which is far more acutely harmful to the planet than a kid whose pet ant is destined to die tomorrow?

American ant keepers in particular have been brainwashed by years of repeated misinformation and fear mongering by individuals whose stated goal is to end the legality of the ant keeping hobby altogether.  If it were up to these experts, you would be committing a crime by collecting and keeping any ant found on your own private property!  Are these the kinds of people you trust with educating your worldview?  Have we seriously reached the point where such a frantic dogpile is so normal to us, that we forget that virtually every person finding this forum is interested in studying and keeping ants?  Wouldn't it be helpful to calmly educate on the laws in instances where someone is actually suggesting engaging in future "illegal activity," rather than investigating and punishing through these incredibly ridiculous discussions after the fact?

 

I would be remiss not to remind everyone that there is no law against keeping Atta in any of the U.S. states.  If you find a colony of Atta in a flower pot purchased at your local nursery, you would not be committing a crime by buying the plant.  Nor has the nursery committed a crime by accidentally selling you an infested potted plant.  However, If someone said on the forum, "Hi, I am in Washington state and would like to buy Atta," it would be correct to simply explain that because Atta are not known to exist in Washington, and because U.S. law prohibits the transport of plant pests between the states, it is therefore unlawful, in your view, to advise the user on how to obtain the insect from the U.S. states in which they are present.

 

We even have a rule prohibiting use of this forum to engage in discussions pertaining to the transportation or exchange of ant species between any of the U.S. states, irrespective of whether the user has a permit, the ants exist in both states, the USDA has made a rule exception, etcetera.  However, we do not have rules designed to investigate and punish users who are alleged to have previously bought, sold, or otherwise unlawfully obtained any ant species they are "not supposed to have," in cases where the public forum was not used to engage in the conduct.  Such a rule would require an immense amount of time and energy to enforce, which would be resources better spent helping others keep and learn about ants.

Everyone contributing to this harassment should ask themselves why they started keeping ants?  Do you care more about studying the insect and sharing your passion and wonder of the natural world with others by contributing helpful information, or are you more interested in launching investigations, inquiries, and acting as law enforcement officers, except with no actual enforcement power aside from these hysterical forum posts?

 

This violent got'cha culture in ant keeping has got to stop.  Armchair lawyer activism in the ant keeping community has got to stop.  Nobody joins an ant keeping forum to be treated this way by do-no-wrong randos on the internet.  If you're seriously so distraught that you believe someone is doing something that is going to cause imminent harm to someone or something somewhere, contact the USDA or some other law enforcement body which has the power to enforce the laws you allege to be the pinnacle of importance—I'm sure they will care deeply about your broken heart, justice will be swift, and punishment will be harsh!

Edited by drtrmiller, May 15 2020 - 9:48 PM.

[AntsDakota]

Solenopsis invicta was believed to have been transported on ocean liners transporting agricultural products from South America nearly a decade ago (1940). 

You do mean century, don't you? Last time I checked, this wasn't the 1950s..........

[jushi]

I am sick and tired of posts and responses from people like this that desperately want to prove that THEIR way of keeping ants is THE BEST way of keeping ants. These posts/responses keep showing the same freaking argument, and last for weeks on end. Regardless of your opinion, someone else isn't you and you aren't them. You go and keep the ants you want to keep, they can go and keep the ants they want to keep. You can have your opinions and reasons, but everything that needs to be said has been already said countless times in this debate. And I'm tired of seeing it constantly in every forum post. It plagues this hobby and makes it toxic and unlikable. I couldn't care less if you're "Team Exotic Ants" or if you're "Team Native Ants". What matters is that we all enjoy this hobby, and it is annoying to see these arguments come up time and time again. It's time we draw a conclusion here: keep ants whatever way you feel is morally and ethically right, and do it by your skill level. Fin.

[jushi]

The risk of harm by introduced species to agricultural systems sustaining our critical food supply is not only very real, but it is also well studied.  To my knowledge, there is no documented case of ant keeping hobbyists having caused any type of invasive ant species introduction.  This is not to say it couldn't happen, but only that ants are simply not very durable, and many require very narrow environmental parameters specific to certain bioregions in order to survive, thrive, and reproduce.

 

Instead, virtually all exotic tramp ant species were introduced to foreign regions by human activity on a massive scale, through exchange of agricultural and similar products.  It is therefore quite possible that most of the invasive species that could thrive in the U.S. have already done so, and there may not be that many more opportunities for new introductions.  For example, Solenopsis invicta was believed to have been transported on ocean liners transporting agricultural products from South America nearly a century ago (1940).  Mass commercial transportation is how they spread, and it is consequently nearly impossible to forever prevent the spread of every single problem organism.  It is far more likely that the next plant pest introduction will be ushered in through the movement of billions of humans via planes, trains, or automobiles, rather than by some irresponsible ant smuggler.

 

It is also for these reasons that all applicable federal legislation in the United States deals almost exclusively with the interstate movement of these plant products.  For decades, plants have been treated for pests and quarantined when they are moved from one state to another, or imported from abroad.  Even dead wood imported from abroad must be fumigated and quarantined before being allowed entry into the US.  The main risk to US commerce comes from the movement of enormous volume of goods—not a single queen ant that has a near 100% probability of a quick death from the moment she enters the care of an inexperienced hobbyist.

Who is to say an Atta species could even thrive in all the U.S. states?  Isn't there a biological reason their range is limited to Texas and Louisiana?  Why isn't Europe infested with Atta, since they have been sold to hobbyists there for the past decades or longer?

Notwithstanding these facts, who here has the authority to actually do anything about purported "illegal activity" other than post comments like a lunatic mall cop on the internet?  How does this conduct affect you personally?  Are your feelings hurt that they "broke the law" and get to keep a cool ant species that you, a model citizen, can only dream of?  Are you that much a raging environmentalist that you chain yourself to other people and stand in the road to prevent the construction of pipelines and other infrastructure which is far more acutely harmful to the planet than a kid whose pet ant is destined to die tomorrow?

American ant keepers in particular have been brainwashed by years of repeated misinformation and fear mongering by individuals whose stated goal is to end the legality of the ant keeping hobby altogether.  Is that the kind of person you trust with educating your worldview?  Have we seriously reached the point where such a frantic dogpile is so normal to us, that we forget that virtually every person finding this forum is interested in studying and keeping ants?  Wouldn't it be helpful to calmly educate on the laws in instances where someone is suggesting engaging in future "illegal activity," rather than investigating and punishing through these incredibly ridiculous discussions after the fact?

 

I would be remiss not to remind everyone that there is no law against keeping Atta in any of the U.S. states.  If someone said on the forum, "Hi, I am in Washington state and would like to buy Atta," it would be correct to simply explain that because Atta are not known to exist in Washington, and because U.S. law prohibits the transport of plant pests between the states, it is therefore unlawful, in your view, to advise the user on how to obtain the insect from the U.S. states in which they are present.  We even have a rule prohibiting use of this forum to engage in the transportation or exchange of ant species between any of the U.S. states, irrespective of whether the user has a permit.  We do not have rules that call for banning users who allegedly obtained an ant species they are "not supposed to have."  Such a rule would require a silly amount of investigatory time and energy to enforce, we probably could not enforce it equally and fairly, and so that is simply not what this forum is about.

Everyone contributing to this harassment should ask themselves why they started keeping ants?  Do you care more about studying the insect and sharing your passion and wonder of the natural world with others by contributing helpful information, or are you more interested in launching investigations, inquiries, and acting as law enforcement officers, except with no actual enforcement power aside from these hysterical forum posts?

 

This violent got'cha culture in ant keeping has got to stop.  Armchair lawyer activism in the ant keeping community has got to stop.  Nobody joins an ant keeping forum to be treated this way by do-no-wrong randos on the internet.  If you're seriously so distraught that you believe someone is doing something that is going to cause imminent harm to someone or something somewhere, contact the USDA or some other law enforcement body which has the power to enforce the laws you allege to be the pinnacle of importance—I'm sure they will care deeply about your broken heart, justice will be swift, and punishment will be harsh!

 

Thank you. This needed to be said.