48 replies to this topic

[Serafine]

The other issue is - do you trust the average US antkeeper to ID a species correctly? Or the people who sell "black ants in a bottle" on GAN?

What happens if someone from Hawaii ships Wasmannia auropunctata to California or someone sends Myrmica rubra, Nylanderia fulva or even worse Solenopsis invicta across the country? Can you imagine what Atta species could do to Californian fruit tree sites or the crop fields of Colorado? There are so many ways how this could go horribly wrong, particularly in the southern states that do not have the protective cold winters that eradicate most tropical invasive species.

Edited by Serafine, January 13 2020 - 3:43 AM.

[ponerinecat]

The other issue is - do you trust the average US antkeeper to ID a species correctly? Or the people who sell "black ants in a bottle" on GAN?

What happens if someone from Hawaii ships Wasmannia auropunctata to California or someone sends Myrmica rubra, Nylanderia fulva or even worse Solenopsis invicta across the country? Can you imagine what Atta species could do to Californian fruit tree sites or the crop fields of Colorado? There are so many ways how this could go horribly wrong, particularly in the southern states that do not have the protective cold winters that eradicate most tropical invasive species.

I remember those.

[AntsDakota]

Ok, maybe just expand the 'can transport' list? It would include but not be limited to-

 

genus Lasius

genus Formica

genus Camponotus

genus Aphaenogaster

genus Brachymyrmex

genus Dorymyrmex

genus Crematogaster

genus Myrmecocystus

genus Prenolepis

genus Pheidole (excluding P. megacephalum)

genus Monomorium

genus Forelius

genus Temnothorax

genus Pogonomyrmex (obviously)

genus Cephalotes

genus Colobopsis

genus Veromessor

genus Novomessor

genus Nylanderia (excluding N. fulva)

genus Ponera

genus Stigmatomma

genus Hypoponera

[ponerinecat]

Ok, maybe just expand the 'can transport' list? It would include but not be limited to-

 

genus Lasius

genus Formica

genus Camponotus

genus Aphaenogaster

genus Brachymyrmex

genus Dorymyrmex

genus Crematogaster

genus Myrmecocystus

genus Prenolepis

genus Pheidole (excluding P. megacephalum)

genus Monomorium

genus Forelius

genus Temnothorax

genus Pogonomyrmex (obviously)

genus Cephalotes

genus Colobopsis

genus Veromessor

genus Novomessor

genus Nylanderia (excluding N. fulva)

genus Ponera

genus Stigmatomma

genus Hypoponera

Monomorium, Pheidole, Dorymyrmex, and some Formica could become hugely invasive. All of these excluding Stigmatomma could be invasive under the right conditions.

And maybe also excluding Cephalotes.

[Serafine]

Lasius niger are invasive in Canada. Considering how stupendously aggressive and territorial they are they're very likely to wipe the floor with most native ants.

And then there's Lasius neglectus the only temperate climate supercolony species (looks fairly similar to Lasius niger), a plague that has already taken over entire city blocks in central Europe similar to how Argentines do in warmer climates.

 

Formica fuscocinerea (as species from the Serviformica group) is currently becoming an invasive in southern Germany, taking over sandy areas and children playgrounds with their massive budding colonies (it even got some media attention because usually parents don't like their toddlers being bitten by big black ants).

 

Camponotus is probably one of the groups that may on average cause the least problems but there are species (like the polygynous Camponotus nicobarensis) with a definite potential to become invasives (didn't they find a "wild" colony of these at some US port recently?).

 

The invasive tiny Brachymyrmex patagonicus may cause serious problems down the line as it is one of the few species that don't just excel in "disturbed landscape" (aka anywhere near humans) but has shown that it can very easily invade natural woodland habitats.

 

Pharao ants belong to the genus Monomorium.

 

 

 

I could go on but I think that's enough to show that limitations on a genus level won't work. Almost every genus has a few problem species and the more generalist it's members typically are the higher is their potential to establish themselves in a new environment and become invasive.

Edited by Serafine, January 14 2020 - 6:38 AM.

[rbarreto]

I feel like the only thing that would work would be bringing some species of tropical ants to colder climates. I don't think the demand is high enough to warrant the government funneling resources into identifying which species wouldn't be able to survive the winter though.

[Manitobant]

new scenario: what if army ants like eciton and dorylus were easily keepable?

Personally I think there would be a huge demand for them and the populations may take a bit of a hit. What do you guys think would happen?

Edited by Manitobant, January 14 2020 - 11:31 AM.

[Skwiggledork]

new scenario: what if army ants like eciton and dorylus were easily keepable?

Personally I think there would be a huge demand for them and the populations may take a bit of a hit. What do you guys think would happen?

I think in order for them to be easily keepable, you would have to change so much about them that they wouldn't be much more interesting to "normal" people to make them popular enough that smuggling and local keeping would affect them much.

Sure they still look amazing and some ant keepers would dream of them, like I do with Myrmecia species, but they wouldn't be as widely known since their behavior/lifestyle is what gets non-ant keeping people to know about them.

[TennesseeAnts]

Ooh I've got a new scenario:

What if central Tennessee wasn't devoid of all the super cool ants like Pogonomyrmex badius and Trachymyrmex septentrionalis or Cyphomyrmex?!

Well, I take that back. There's a few recorded Trachymyrmex colonies in the Nashville area.

[TheMicroPlanet]

new scenario: what if army ants like eciton and dorylus were easily keepable?

Personally I think there would be a huge demand for them and the populations may take a bit of a hit. What do you guys think would happen?

I honestly think army ant keeping would be a LOT more expensive than ordinary ant keeping. I mean, you're dealing with a whole new set of variables and requirements with them.

[TheMicroPlanet]

New Scenario:

 

If there were ants in the polar or aquatic environments, what adaptations would they have?

[ponerinecat]

I have one: WHAT IF I WASN'T NAUTURAL ANT REPELLANT

[AntsDakota]

Lasius niger are invasive in Canada. Considering how stupendously aggressive and territorial they are they're very likely to wipe the floor with most native ants.

And then there's Lasius neglectus the only temperate climate supercolony species (looks fairly similar to Lasius niger), a plague that has already taken over entire city blocks in central Europe similar to how Argentines do in warmer climates.

 

Formica fuscocinerea (as species from the Serviformica group) is currently becoming an invasive in southern Germany, taking over sandy areas and children playgrounds with their massive budding colonies (it even got some media attention because usually parents don't like their toddlers being bitten by big black ants).

 

Camponotus is probably one of the groups that may on average cause the least problems but there are species (like the polygynous Camponotus nicobarensis) with a definite potential to become invasives (didn't they find a "wild" colony of these at some US port recently?).

 

The invasive tiny Brachymyrmex patagonicus may cause serious problems down the line as it is one of the few species that don't just excel in "disturbed landscape" (aka anywhere near humans) but has shown that it can very easily invade natural woodland habitats.

 

Pharao ants belong to the genus Monomorium.

 

 

 

I could go on but I think that's enough to show that limitations on a genus level won't work. Almost every genus has a few problem species and the more generalist it's members typically are the higher is their potential to establish themselves in a new environment and become invasive.

 

I feel like the only thing that would work would be bringing some species of tropical ants to colder climates. I don't think the demand is high enough to warrant the government funneling resources into identifying which species wouldn't be able to survive the winter though.

 

Camponotus pennsylvanicus

Camponotus novaeboracensis

genus Cephalotes

Formica fusca species complex

Lasius americanus

Lasius neoniger

genus Myrmecocystus

Odontomachus brunneus 

Odontomachus clarus

genus Pogonomyrmex

Prenolepis imparis

Solenonpsis molesta

genus Stigmatomma

Edited by AntsDakota, January 14 2020 - 5:04 PM.

[Serafine]

New Scenario:

 

If there were ants in the polar or aquatic environments, what adaptations would they have?

 

You basically already have those in form of the northern Prenolepis imparis populations, they're having an estivation/hibernation period of 9-10 months (they're only active for 3-4 weeks during early spring and late autumn/early winter).

Not really an interesting species to keep.

 

Aquatic eusocial strategies don't seem to work as fish are incredibly effective at sucking up vast amounts of small invertebrates. Those things would have to be incredibly dangerous to keep ocean predators at bay.

Edited by Serafine, January 15 2020 - 6:20 AM.

[TheMicroPlanet]

 

New Scenario:

 

If there were ants in the polar or aquatic environments, what adaptations would they have?

 

You basically already have those in form of the northern Prenolepis imparis populations, they're having an estivation/hibernation period of 9-10 months (they're only active for 3-4 weeks during early spring and late autumn/early winter).

Not really an interesting species to keep.

 

Aquatic eusocial strategies don't seem to work as fish are incredibly effective at sucking up vast amounts of small invertebrates. Those things would have to be incredibly dangerous to keep ocean predators at bay.

 

P. imparis doesn't really get that far north/south. At least, not as far as I was asking. Basically, if there were ants living around, say, the South Pole, what exactly would they be like?

Edited by TheMicroPlanet, January 16 2020 - 12:41 PM.

[ponerinecat]

 

 

New Scenario:

 

If there were ants in the polar or aquatic environments, what adaptations would they have?

 

You basically already have those in form of the northern Prenolepis imparis populations, they're having an estivation/hibernation period of 9-10 months (they're only active for 3-4 weeks during early spring and late autumn/early winter).

Not really an interesting species to keep.

 

Aquatic eusocial strategies don't seem to work as fish are incredibly effective at sucking up vast amounts of small invertebrates. Those things would have to be incredibly dangerous to keep ocean predators at bay.

 

P. imparis doesn't really get that far north/south. At least, not as far as I was asking. Basically, if there were ants living around, say, the South Pole, what exactly would they be like?

 

Dead.

[Serafine]

No insects can live around the south pole and even if they could* what do you expect them to eat? There's nothing there. Not even mammals can survive there, basically all arctic life depends on the oceans (which are not an option near the south pole).

Maybe at the coasts they could survive (bird poop should be a food source available in abundance) but they'd be incredibly slow-growing and probably hibernating for most of the year.

 

*assuming that insects for whatever reason invented exothermic metabolism, although not even that would help them as due to their small size and large surface area (in relation to their volume) they would freeze to the core withins seconds

[LPN1982]

Let's not forget the infamous Tapinoma melanocephalum aka the Ghost Ant. They are a tropical non-native pest species in Florida, but have been established in the Southeastern United States for a very long time much like Pheidole megacephala, the volatile Solenopsis invicta, and many others. According to the USDA, Tapinoma melanocephalum is one of the most invasive, house infesting pest species that can be very difficult to control. A small species that have a unique coloring and the ability to disappear/blend among certain colors. They will literally swarm en masse on anything edible in your home even if its wrapped up and safely stored. (I personally experienced the little hemorrhoids within my kitchen years back). I'm not sure how far in the USA they have gotten, but apparently they can not survive or tolerate the cold in the Northeastern US.

Edited by LPN1982, January 30 2020 - 4:32 AM.

[NickAnter]

Some species, especially those with small colonies or passive behavior would not cause problems, I don't think. For example, L. flavus would probably be fine, along with ants like Temnothorax.

[AntsDakota]

No insects can live around the south pole and even if they could* what do you expect them to eat? There's nothing there. Not even mammals can survive there, basically all arctic life depends on the oceans (which are not an option near the south pole).

Maybe at the coasts they could survive (bird poop should be a food source available in abundance) but they'd be incredibly slow-growing and probably hibernating for most of the year.

 

*assuming that insects for whatever reason invented exothermic metabolism, although not even that would help them as due to their small size and large surface area (in relation to their volume) they would freeze to the core withins seconds

Perhaps Trachymyrmex would be best suited. They could feed the bird excrement to their fungus. I read somewhere that it gets to 60 degrees on the Peninsula in the heat of summer, so perhaps they could live there.....

Edited by AntsDakota, January 30 2020 - 3:20 PM.