100 replies to this topic

[P0rcelain]

i am aware that this is a nitpick, but we do not know for certain if we are the only species which 'asks why'.

and it could be quite a while until we do know for certain, due to very few other species having developed the ability to name things and form language.

of course, most animals have language. but very few seem to be able to engineer it on the fly like we can.

Edited by P0rcelain, December 17 2019 - 7:49 PM.

[zantezaint]

Because we do care about them. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we don't capture queens ants for amusement, but rather for understanding. Understanding that ants are amazing creatures, with complex social systems, that we could never create ourselves. We take them into captivity to protect them (especially here in the South) from fire and argentine ants, that would surely kill the wonderful native ants that we love. We take them into captivity to give them a better chance of survival. In the wild 1 queen ant in about 100 will make it to maturity, and even then it's even more rare for them to last 5+ years. So I think it's pretty ignorant to say we don't care about ants.

What? Then what? We understand, and then? How are you contributing to the increase in their global population? Are you going to keep them until the queens die of old age or will you release them? If you do release them, when will you release them? Perhaps, will they die from stress? How are they going to mate in captivity? Now, I've done a bit of reading on mating in captivity, and it seems like the odds are low. Also, from what I've read, and from what I've experienced, many queens that may have survived in the wild, died due to captivity in relation to stress or environmental factors including, but not limited to drowning, overheating, physical trauma, etc. Let's cut the crap, we love ants, but "most" of us haven't helped with the problem, and as a matter of a fact, made it worse. Yeah, I remember my share of killing a few queens due to human error; queens that could have survived in the wild, who knows. The odds of queens surviving in the wild is low, but that one tough queen could have flourished and expanded, if it hadn't been for us.

[DDD101DDD]

 

Because we do care about them. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we don't capture queens ants for amusement, but rather for understanding. Understanding that ants are amazing creatures, with complex social systems, that we could never create ourselves. We take them into captivity to protect them (especially here in the South) from fire and argentine ants, that would surely kill the wonderful native ants that we love. We take them into captivity to give them a better chance of survival. In the wild 1 queen ant in about 100 will make it to maturity, and even then it's even more rare for them to last 5+ years. So I think it's pretty ignorant to say we don't care about ants.

What? Then what? We understand, and then? How are you contributing to the increase in their global population? Are you going to keep them until the queens die of old age or will you release them? If you do release them, when will you release them? Perhaps, will they die from stress? How are they going to mate in captivity? Now, I've done a bit of reading on mating in captivity, and it seems like the odds are low. Also, from what I've read, and from what I've experienced, many queens that may have survived in the wild, died due to captivity in relation to stress or environmental factors including, but not limited to drowning, overheating, physical trauma, etc. Let's cut the crap, we love ants, but "most" of us haven't helped with the problem, and as a matter of a fact, made it worse. Yeah, I remember my share of killing a few queens due to human error; queens that could have survived in the wild, who knows. The odds of queens surviving in the wild is low, but that one tough queen could have flourished and expanded, if it hadn't been for us.

 

Well you're assuming that the queens we are catching are endangered or need to be protected in some way. Besides, many people release alates that their colonies produce.
 

[zantezaint]

 

 

Because we do care about them. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we don't capture queens ants for amusement, but rather for understanding. Understanding that ants are amazing creatures, with complex social systems, that we could never create ourselves. We take them into captivity to protect them (especially here in the South) from fire and argentine ants, that would surely kill the wonderful native ants that we love. We take them into captivity to give them a better chance of survival. In the wild 1 queen ant in about 100 will make it to maturity, and even then it's even more rare for them to last 5+ years. So I think it's pretty ignorant to say we don't care about ants.

What? Then what? We understand, and then? How are you contributing to the increase in their global population? Are you going to keep them until the queens die of old age or will you release them? If you do release them, when will you release them? Perhaps, will they die from stress? How are they going to mate in captivity? Now, I've done a bit of reading on mating in captivity, and it seems like the odds are low. Also, from what I've read, and from what I've experienced, many queens that may have survived in the wild, died due to captivity in relation to stress or environmental factors including, but not limited to drowning, overheating, physical trauma, etc. Let's cut the crap, we love ants, but "most" of us haven't helped with the problem, and as a matter of a fact, made it worse. Yeah, I remember my share of killing a few queens due to human error; queens that could have survived in the wild, who knows. The odds of queens surviving in the wild is low, but that one tough queen could have flourished and expanded, if it hadn't been for us.

 

Well you're assuming that the queens we are catching are endangered or need to be protected in some way. Besides, many people release alates that their colonies produce.

 

That is "if" they reach maturity, and "if" they really do. Too many "ifs." Yeah, I think I am gonna stick to my answer.

 

Edited by zantezaint, December 22 2019 - 7:26 PM.

[ANTdrew]

There is a natural redundancy built into how ant colonies send out hundreds of queens. Only the lucky few survive to found colonies of their own. The tiny amount of hobbyists gathering from the surplus of common species’ queens has next to no effect on the long term survival rate of ants as a whole.
That being said, I am adamantly opposed to the practice of collecting whole colonies from the wild, ESPECIALLY if they are rare species that aren’t typically found in nuptial flights.

[TennesseeAnts]

Because we do care about them. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we don't capture queens ants for amusement, but rather for understanding. Understanding that ants are amazing creatures, with complex social systems, that we could never create ourselves. We take them into captivity to protect them (especially here in the South) from fire and argentine ants, that would surely kill the wonderful native ants that we love. We take them into captivity to give them a better chance of survival. In the wild 1 queen ant in about 100 will make it to maturity, and even then it's even more rare for them to last 5+ years. So I think it's pretty ignorant to say we don't care about ants.

What? Then what? We understand, and then? How are you contributing to the increase in their global population? Are you going to keep them until the queens die of old age or will you release them? If you do release them, when will you release them? Perhaps, will they die from stress? How are they going to mate in captivity? Now, I've done a bit of reading on mating in captivity, and it seems like the odds are low. Also, from what I've read, and from what I've experienced, many queens that may have survived in the wild, died due to captivity in relation to stress or environmental factors including, but not limited to drowning, overheating, physical trauma, etc. Let's cut the crap, we love ants, but "most" of us haven't helped with the problem, and as a matter of a fact, made it worse. Yeah, I remember my share of killing a few queens due to human error; queens that could have survived in the wild, who knows. The odds of queens surviving in the wild is low, but that one tough queen could have flourished and expanded, if it hadn't been for us.

You seem to be under the impression that ants need protected. This is not so. Over 15% of the world's biomass is made up of ants. The absolutely TINY fraction that us hobbyists collect of the billions of queens has no impact on global populations.

[ponerinecat]

 

Because we do care about them. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we don't capture queens ants for amusement, but rather for understanding. Understanding that ants are amazing creatures, with complex social systems, that we could never create ourselves. We take them into captivity to protect them (especially here in the South) from fire and argentine ants, that would surely kill the wonderful native ants that we love. We take them into captivity to give them a better chance of survival. In the wild 1 queen ant in about 100 will make it to maturity, and even then it's even more rare for them to last 5+ years. So I think it's pretty ignorant to say we don't care about ants.

What? Then what? We understand, and then? How are you contributing to the increase in their global population? Are you going to keep them until the queens die of old age or will you release them? If you do release them, when will you release them? Perhaps, will they die from stress? How are they going to mate in captivity? Now, I've done a bit of reading on mating in captivity, and it seems like the odds are low. Also, from what I've read, and from what I've experienced, many queens that may have survived in the wild, died due to captivity in relation to stress or environmental factors including, but not limited to drowning, overheating, physical trauma, etc. Let's cut the crap, we love ants, but "most" of us haven't helped with the problem, and as a matter of a fact, made it worse. Yeah, I remember my share of killing a few queens due to human error; queens that could have survived in the wild, who knows. The odds of queens surviving in the wild is low, but that one tough queen could have flourished and expanded, if it hadn't been for us.

 

We don't protect them unless they need protection. Same logic with any other pet. We never needed to tame wolves. But we did. Such a small percentage of queen survive. Again, insects should not be judged as individuals unless the condition is dire. There are so many of them that it doesn't matter if 80 percent of queens die, because that already happens every nuptial flight. In terms of ants, there is no problem. They don't need protection. We have made no problem, we have not contributed to the problem, we have not helped with the problem, because there is no problem. This thread was made to discuss bees. Bees are not ants. If you were targeting irresponsible bee-keepers, fine. But we keep ants, one of the most numerous insects, and even if we fail in the attempt, it does not matter. It is inconsequential. These are different things, and they have different problems, if any at all.

[TennesseeAnts]

Because we do care about them. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we don't capture queens ants for amusement, but rather for understanding. Understanding that ants are amazing creatures, with complex social systems, that we could never create ourselves. We take them into captivity to protect them (especially here in the South) from fire and argentine ants, that would surely kill the wonderful native ants that we love. We take them into captivity to give them a better chance of survival. In the wild 1 queen ant in about 100 will make it to maturity, and even then it's even more rare for them to last 5+ years. So I think it's pretty ignorant to say we don't care about ants.

What? Then what? We understand, and then? How are you contributing to the increase in their global population? Are you going to keep them until the queens die of old age or will you release them? If you do release them, when will you release them? Perhaps, will they die from stress? How are they going to mate in captivity? Now, I've done a bit of reading on mating in captivity, and it seems like the odds are low. Also, from what I've read, and from what I've experienced, many queens that may have survived in the wild, died due to captivity in relation to stress or environmental factors including, but not limited to drowning, overheating, physical trauma, etc. Let's cut the crap, we love ants, but "most" of us haven't helped with the problem, and as a matter of a fact, made it worse. Yeah, I remember my share of killing a few queens due to human error; queens that could have survived in the wild, who knows. The odds of queens surviving in the wild is low, but that one tough queen could have flourished and expanded, if it hadn't been for us.

We don't protect them unless they need protection. Same logic with any other pet. We never needed to tame wolves. But we did. Such a small percentage of queen survive. Again, insects should not be judged as individuals unless the condition is dire. There are so many of them that it doesn't matter if 80 percent of queens die, because that already happens every nuptial flight. In terms of ants, there is no problem. They don't need protection. We have made no problem, we have not contributed to the problem, we have not helped with the problem, because there is no problem. This thread was made to discuss bees. Bees are not ants. If you were targeting irresponsible bee-keepers, fine. But we keep ants, one of the most numerous insects, and even if we fail in the attempt, it does not matter. It is inconsequential. These are different things, and they have different problems, if any at all.

Couldn't have said it better.

[zantezaint]

 

 

Because we do care about them. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we don't capture queens ants for amusement, but rather for understanding. Understanding that ants are amazing creatures, with complex social systems, that we could never create ourselves. We take them into captivity to protect them (especially here in the South) from fire and argentine ants, that would surely kill the wonderful native ants that we love. We take them into captivity to give them a better chance of survival. In the wild 1 queen ant in about 100 will make it to maturity, and even then it's even more rare for them to last 5+ years. So I think it's pretty ignorant to say we don't care about ants.

What? Then what? We understand, and then? How are you contributing to the increase in their global population? Are you going to keep them until the queens die of old age or will you release them? If you do release them, when will you release them? Perhaps, will they die from stress? How are they going to mate in captivity? Now, I've done a bit of reading on mating in captivity, and it seems like the odds are low. Also, from what I've read, and from what I've experienced, many queens that may have survived in the wild, died due to captivity in relation to stress or environmental factors including, but not limited to drowning, overheating, physical trauma, etc. Let's cut the crap, we love ants, but "most" of us haven't helped with the problem, and as a matter of a fact, made it worse. Yeah, I remember my share of killing a few queens due to human error; queens that could have survived in the wild, who knows. The odds of queens surviving in the wild is low, but that one tough queen could have flourished and expanded, if it hadn't been for us.

 

We don't protect them unless they need protection. Same logic with any other pet. We never needed to tame wolves. But we did. Such a small percentage of queen survive. Again, insects should not be judged as individuals unless the condition is dire. There are so many of them that it doesn't matter if 80 percent of queens die, because that already happens every nuptial flight. In terms of ants, there is no problem. They don't need protection. We have made no problem, we have not contributed to the problem, we have not helped with the problem, because there is no problem. This thread was made to discuss bees. Bees are not ants. If you were targeting irresponsible bee-keepers, fine. But we keep ants, one of the most numerous insects, and even if we fail in the attempt, it does not matter. It is inconsequential. These are different things, and they have different problems, if any at all.

 

No. Read the thread, and my posts. It is just hypocritical to see so many folks in this forum act like they give a crap about these insects, when all we do is capture them for our "hobby," or "amusement." The reality is, we're selfish, but to sugarcoat that with some bs is quite frankly, hilarious. You can "try" to justify it by saying we aren't affecting the global population of insects on a "big scale," like as if the extent or degree to which we affect the population ever mattered in justifying our act. Sorry, but it really isn't a matter of size or scale, it's whether we do it or not, and we do affect the issue at hand whether it is minuscule or on a large scale. This really applies to anything in life. For ex. You got a 100 polar bears left in the world. You kill 1, that is only 1 percent of what's left. Yeah, the percentage is small. Guess what, it doesn't matter because that is 1 less polar bear that can reproduce. RIP.

[TennesseeAnts]

R.I.P polar bear

2019-2020

 

Why are you trying to cause a problem in the first place?

Edited by Ant_Dude2908, December 31 2019 - 1:45 PM.

[ponerinecat]

 

 

 

Because we do care about them. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we don't capture queens ants for amusement, but rather for understanding. Understanding that ants are amazing creatures, with complex social systems, that we could never create ourselves. We take them into captivity to protect them (especially here in the South) from fire and argentine ants, that would surely kill the wonderful native ants that we love. We take them into captivity to give them a better chance of survival. In the wild 1 queen ant in about 100 will make it to maturity, and even then it's even more rare for them to last 5+ years. So I think it's pretty ignorant to say we don't care about ants.

What? Then what? We understand, and then? How are you contributing to the increase in their global population? Are you going to keep them until the queens die of old age or will you release them? If you do release them, when will you release them? Perhaps, will they die from stress? How are they going to mate in captivity? Now, I've done a bit of reading on mating in captivity, and it seems like the odds are low. Also, from what I've read, and from what I've experienced, many queens that may have survived in the wild, died due to captivity in relation to stress or environmental factors including, but not limited to drowning, overheating, physical trauma, etc. Let's cut the crap, we love ants, but "most" of us haven't helped with the problem, and as a matter of a fact, made it worse. Yeah, I remember my share of killing a few queens due to human error; queens that could have survived in the wild, who knows. The odds of queens surviving in the wild is low, but that one tough queen could have flourished and expanded, if it hadn't been for us.

 

We don't protect them unless they need protection. Same logic with any other pet. We never needed to tame wolves. But we did. Such a small percentage of queen survive. Again, insects should not be judged as individuals unless the condition is dire. There are so many of them that it doesn't matter if 80 percent of queens die, because that already happens every nuptial flight. In terms of ants, there is no problem. They don't need protection. We have made no problem, we have not contributed to the problem, we have not helped with the problem, because there is no problem. This thread was made to discuss bees. Bees are not ants. If you were targeting irresponsible bee-keepers, fine. But we keep ants, one of the most numerous insects, and even if we fail in the attempt, it does not matter. It is inconsequential. These are different things, and they have different problems, if any at all.

 

No. Read the thread, and my posts. It is just hypocritical to see so many folks in this forum act like they give a crap about these insects, when all we do is capture them for our "hobby," or "amusement." The reality is, we're selfish, but to sugarcoat that with some bs is quite frankly, hilarious. You can "try" to justify it by saying we aren't affecting the global population of insects on a "big scale," like as if the extent or degree to which we affect the population ever mattered in justifying our act. Sorry, but it really isn't a matter of size or scale, it's whether we do it or not, and we do affect the issue at hand whether it is minuscule or on a large scale. This really applies to anything in life. For ex. You got a 100 polar bears left in the world. You kill 1, that is only 1 percent of what's left. Yeah, the percentage is small. Guess what, it doesn't matter because that is 1 less polar bear that can reproduce. RIP.

 

Except unlike polar bears, they number in the millions. And unlike polar bears, thousand more merge every year. And unlike polar bears, they're environment is not in danger(usually). And unlike polar bears, they don't require huge levels of care putting the parent at risk. While I'm not justifying the act of capturing the ant, we are taking the animal from the population, and even if it doesn't affect the species, it is still for our own benefit. But your logic is confusing. I understand if you don't like us sugarcoating the issue, but we do care for the insects. There's no need to burst out in criticism. I mean, its the same with any other pet keeping community. In any other pet, they take the animal from the wild or breed it in captivity, in your words, "for their own amusement." So by your logic, all those people don't care for the animals. And this thread is about global declining populations of bees. There is no real hypocrisy, pretty much all of us (I think) actually care about the issue. We all hate mosquitoes, and kill them by the thousands, but if all people were educated about the risks, we would be concerned if the went extinct, despite still hating the animals.

[ANTdrew]

This thread was two years old. Why did anyone bring it back up??

[P0rcelain]

ant_dude2908

[ponerinecat]

This thread was two years old. Why did anyone bring it back up??

because arguments

[TennesseeAnts]

This thread was two years old. Why did anyone bring it back up??

Hehehehe............oops........ Thought it was a relevant issue to talk about.

Edited by Ant_Dude2908, January 1 2020 - 9:54 AM.

[zantezaint]

Polar bear is a random example f sakes. SMH. Replace polar bear with "X" animal. Happy? Now you get the point? ANALLLLLLLLLL. Either way, my point being, we are part of the problem no matter how small the scale is, so this thread is a pure joke.

Edited by zantezaint, January 1 2020 - 11:13 AM.

[ponerinecat]

Polar bear is a random example f sakes. SMH. Replace polar bear with "X" animal. Happy? Now you get the point? ANALLLLLLLLLL. Either way, my point being, we are part of the problem no matter how small the scale is, so this thread is a pure joke.

Yes. We are part of the problem. I get that, and no one is contradicting you. I strongly agree that we are destroying the planet. This thread was created to try and notify some less knowledgable people on the fact that honeybee populations are going down, likely because of human intervention. We're not argueing over that, we're arguing over the fact that you get mad and call us all a bunch of hypocrites and say that no one cares for the animals. that's a pretty cynical view, and its not at all true. No one here is arguing that humans are a bunch of higher beings above the fray, we all agree that we have caused at leats some damage. I just don't like how you start ranting about how the hobby is a bunch of animal hating hypocrites enslaving animals without a care about our effect. The number one rule among antkeepers is honestly to limit your colony number. While we do take them from the wild, we keep in mind how many queens we can take, or how many other animals we can legally take before it harms the environment.

[TheMicroPlanet]

It's kind of interesting to think that humans are the only organisms we know of to actively disable ecosystems. I mean, you can point out invasive species, but they're only invasive because we put them in places we shouldn't have. Of course, i'm not one of those nuts who wants human extinction; actually, if we're able to do this much bad to the biosphere, we should be able to do an equivalent amount of good to it too.

[AntsDakota]

If, in this guy's opinion, ant keeping unethical and to the slightest degree harmful to the environment, why is he even on the 'Ants and Myrmecology Forum'?

[ANTdrew]

Polar bear is a random example f sakes. SMH. Replace polar bear with "X" animal. Happy? Now you get the point? ANALLLLLLLLLL. Either way, my point being, we are part of the problem no matter how small the scale is, so this thread is a pure joke.

This thread made no sense in 2017, and it makes even less sense now. Can someone please shut this down?