84 replies to this topic

[Manitobant]

what about in places like Florida where neivamyrmex don't hibernate? N. Opacithorax is found in the keys and preys on tramps like invicta.

As long as we're using non native ant species to combat other non native ant species (which often doesn't work, btw), we might as well use some other more common army ant genus such as Eciton.

That's the worst idea I've heard. Know why Eciton move so often, more than any other doryline? It's because they kill and eat so much they need to move to new foraging grounds or they will starve. That's fine in a rainforest with huge biodiversity and density, but few other environments could support ants like those. The entire system would collapse. Eciton wouldn't even bother with argentines, they would go for birds.

Like I was saying earlier, I'm guessing most of the people saying they think we should release tropical species into an area to take care of Linepithema and Solenopsis only think it would be a good idea because they see an opportunity to keep their favorite exotics without a permit. Let me say it one last time, it is a horrible idea and will only make things worse for the environment!

neivamyrmex is a native genus tho. I'm suggesting we take them out of the deep woods or mountains and release them in residential areas

Edited by Manitobant, January 16 2020 - 5:30 PM.

[Ferox_Formicae]

neivamyrmex is a native genus tho. I'm suggesting we take them out of the deep woods or mountains and release them in residential areas

This may not work, especially in areas with lots of pavement, as Neivamyrmex is known to be subterranean in nature, and I doubt they would do very well in the big city, short of areas with lots of parks. As an answer to this entire thread, I highly doubt much can be done to help these native ants. We may just have to let nature run it's course here, and hope that in the next few generations of ants, the natives can develop means of dealing with these invasive species, as is the case with Prenolepis imparis. It is also a possibility that the exotics could eradicate of themselves, warring until the species are eventually reduced down to a few populations, or are wiped out entirely. For the moment, at least until we have a viable solution, let's just leave it at that.

Edited by Ferox_Formicae, January 16 2020 - 6:28 PM.

[ponerinecat]

I feel the most we can do is try to deal with local populations of invasives. At least try to limit their growth.

[ANTdrew]

Yes. In sum: nothing can be done, BUT... If more SoCal yards were planted with desert native plants, some diversity could be maintained. Native bee diversity, hummingbirds, etc. would benefit. Native plants is the only long term answer. Learn how to gather native CA plant seeds and grow them in your yard; if you plant it, they will come!

[ponerinecat]

Yes. In sum: nothing can be done, BUT... If more SoCal yards were planted with desert native plants, some diversity could be maintained. Native bee diversity, hummingbirds, etc. would benefit. Native plants is the only long term answer. Learn how to gather native CA plant seeds and grow them in your yard; if you plant it, they will come!

I get your point, and native plants do encourage diversity, but this is not a permanent nor long term answer. Invasives often don't have a hard time living alongside native plants. I se argentines in the woods all the time. Pretty much nowhere here doesnt have them.

[gcsnelling]

I get your point, and native plants do encourage diversity, but this is not a permanent nor long term answer. Invasives often don't have a hard time living alongside native plants. I se argentines in the woods all the time. Pretty much nowhere here doesnt have them.

 

Actually nothing could be further from the truth, a healthy native population will strongly encourage strong competition against the argentines. I am well familiar with the southern California population of Linelithema and have commonly encountered them in low numbers in edge areas but not deep into relatively healthy habitats.

[NickAnter]

Yeah, in drier, less urban areas, such as a large school field, Dorymyrmex insanus, Solenopsis xyloni, and Solenopsis molesta rule. No argentines. The only Formicines are some tiny populations of Nylanderia. Pheidole navigans, sadly invasive, also are prevalent. I do not mind them, as they do not displace natives. And this is in the very middle of argentine territory. Just over an acre of natives.

[ANTdrew]

Thank you! Well said, Nick and Gcsnelling.

[ponerinecat]

Interesting. I guess it depends on the habitat. I have noticed that argentines do not exist in the bottom ravine woods, but I thought that was due to little areas suitable for nests. In our back hill chaparrel, however, argentines nest openly, probably due to large amounts of small rocks.

[AntsDakota]

 

 

what about in places like Florida where neivamyrmex don't hibernate? N. Opacithorax is found in the keys and preys on tramps like invicta.

 

As long as we're using non native ant species to combat other non native ant species (which often doesn't work, btw), we might as well use some other more common army ant genus such as Eciton.

 

That's the worst idea I've heard. Know why Eciton move so often, more than any other doryline? It's because they kill and eat so much they need to move to new foraging grounds or they will starve. That's fine in a rainforest with huge biodiversity and density, but few other environments could support ants like those. The entire system would collapse. Eciton wouldn't even bother with argentines, they would go for birds.

 

That was more like a retort, which is why I said ''which often doesn't work, btw''.

[SuperFrank]

Any attempt by a nonprofessional to somehow fiddle with your local ecology is a bad idea, even if you have good intentions, just from skimming this post I've seen ideas that would make an ecologist gasp in horror: raising and then releasing captive species, transplanting native species, etc. All without any sort of studies on the current state of the local ecology, how those actions will impact the flora/fauna etc.

[Ferox_Formicae]

Any attempt by a nonprofessional to somehow fiddle with your local ecology is a bad idea, even if you have good intentions, just from skimming this post I've seen ideas that would make an ecologist gasp in horror: raising and then releasing captive species, transplanting native species, etc. All without any sort of studies on the current state of the local ecology, how those actions will impact the flora/fauna etc.

Honestly, it's mostly just young, inexperienced anters wanting tropical species like Eciton and Neivamyrmex to be introduced to their areas without any regard for how that would negatively effect the environment. It's sad really...

[ANTdrew]

I’ll climb up my soapbox again: restore native habitat with native plants. That’s about all that can be done.
Residential turf grass covers an area of our country the size of New England. If everybody restored a little bit of native plant diversity in their yards, all kinds of wildlife would benefit.

[gcsnelling]

 

Any attempt by a nonprofessional to somehow fiddle with your local ecology is a bad idea, even if you have good intentions, just from skimming this post I've seen ideas that would make an ecologist gasp in horror: raising and then releasing captive species, transplanting native species, etc. All without any sort of studies on the current state of the local ecology, how those actions will impact the flora/fauna etc.

Honestly, it's mostly just young, inexperienced anters wanting tropical species like Eciton and Neivamyrmex to be introduced to their areas without any regard for how that would negatively effect the environment. It's sad really...

 

 Sad yes, but even more sad is that it is not entirely the young inexperienced ant folks, I have far too often heard the refrain "show me the research showing it is bad" "Oh gee if there is no research paper then it can't be bad". It is not just here but I have heard this with other groups as well. Butterfly folks are aware to some degree of the dangers of releasing captive raised stock as well but there are still many butterfly release exercises performed yearly by unsuspecting school children  etc. Fortunately with reptiles, fish etc, there is data showing how bad it can be and the mentality is more to play things on the side of caution, but the ant folks just can not seem to see how the other data can be applied across the board. The single most applicable word I can find for this mentality is "STUPID"

[AntsDakota]

Any attempt by a nonprofessional to somehow fiddle with your local ecology is a bad idea, even if you have good intentions, just from skimming this post I've seen ideas that would make an ecologist gasp in horror: raising and then releasing captive species, transplanting native species, etc. All without any sort of studies on the current state of the local ecology, how those actions will impact the flora/fauna etc.

Ok- we were only speculating. A bunch of what-ifs WHICH WILL NOT HAPPEN. If you seriously think we'd actually do things like that..... 

Edited by AntsDakota, February 16 2020 - 3:15 PM.

[Vendayn]

Can release native ants that have a tiny chance to spread disease among argentine ants and other invasive ants win/win

 

Plus no ones been able to counter that people carry spores of molds/fungus and other stuff on their shoes or car tires when going anting or researching ants. Even going hiking is spreading pathogens and other stuff. Traveling to another country is spreading pathogens. Driving to another state is spreading stuff too since stuff gets stuck on car tires. People spread more disease and molds and viruses and other stuff than releasing some captive stuff does. There are things like single celled amoebas that people transport all the time which can be very deadly.

 

Plus if something deadly came from captivity, then pretty sure no one is gonna be worrying about ants but worrying about themselves and the people around them. I'd start worrying more about what was in my living area then I would about anything else. I'd hope CDC would quarantine my living area if it was that bad.

 

On top of that, I often see argentine ants get spread around from pots from garden stores. No one seems to care about argentine ants anymore to do anything about it. Argentine ants aren't even in quarantine areas like Solenopsis invicta is, which is really dumb.

But maybe people that are pro-killing captive stuff are the same people who want to kill another human for immigrating to another country. Its pretty much the same thing, cause other humans can carry disease with them so what's the difference?

 

But if someone doesn't want to be a hypocrite and they worry so much about pathogens, they should never leave their house because that is spreading pathogens and all kinds of things all the time.

Edited by Vendayn, February 16 2020 - 3:28 PM.

[SuperFrank]

Any attempt by a nonprofessional to somehow fiddle with your local ecology is a bad idea, even if you have good intentions, just from skimming this post I've seen ideas that would make an ecologist gasp in horror: raising and then releasing captive species, transplanting native species, etc. All without any sort of studies on the current state of the local ecology, how those actions will impact the flora/fauna etc.

Ok- we were only speculating. A bunch of what-ifs WHICH WILL NOT HAPPEN. If you seriously think we'd actually do things like that.....

Why would you "speculate" about something that has potentially disastrous results. That's like making a bomb threat and then saying "I was joking lol" when the police come to arrest you.

Edited by SuperFrank, February 16 2020 - 3:30 PM.

[gcsnelling]

And there it is. The pro or at least neutral release response. Although it is true there are few studies indicating that the release of captive raised arthropods can spread disease, there are some which focus on lepidoptera and there plenty of studies which show that diseases of vertebrates specifically snake fungal disease and the various fungal diseases affecting amphibians can  be spread by human interaction or release of animals not from that area ie:captive animals In fact the danger of this transmittal is such that many herpers take special precautions  to sterilize as much of their clothing and equipment as possible after each trip.

And yes Vendayn, in a world such as you suggest  we could completely shut off any outside interaction contamination danger, however as we know such a bubble life is not practical and to suggest that as an option is short sighted and plain stupid. The simple fact is all we can do is the best we can to prevent or limit the spread of pathogens or species not native to an area.

[ANTdrew]

Read some biology and recent ecology, ya’ll. Agh!!!!!!!!!
I guarantee that if most CA yards were xeriscaped with natives, Argentines would not have so deep a foothold. Is that ever going to happen? No, but you youngsters reading now can think about how you can help if and when you have a yard of your own.

[NickAnter]

Okay. Xeriscaping yards in my neighboorhood has only invited argentines. Maybe in some areas it helps, but around here, where the average yard is very small, in an area alreday dominated, natives don't atand much chance. If this were done in very large yards, anys like S. xyloni would be able to shove them out, however, it is the small yards that are an issue, and can not really be used to much good.