103 replies to this topic

[dspdrew]

While I'm still just a spectator here, I just wanted to point out something after reading Michaelofvancouver's post. No matter what the intentions are, in a free-market economy, competition always benefits the consumer.

[Reacker]

In this thread: Unemployed adult man living with his parents while lacking the possession of income or useful skills/education doesn't understand how businesses work. Surprise. 

[Subverted]

In this thread: Unemployed adult man living with his parents while lacking the possession of income or useful skills/education doesn't understand how businesses work. Surprise.

Yeah dealing with chronic health problems was my first choice in life.

I'm pretty sure I understand how business works - I just don't like the markup on this product, the questionable claims (excellent source is FDA regulated), or the whole "you need to buy this to succeed" mentality that businesses targeting this hobby utilize all while providing no evidence to support their claims.

[Vendayn]

This thread is really similar to

 

http://www.formicult...ths/#entry57520

 

Did you start asking questions after reading that? Reacker did say he wanted more information on ants, when a lot of info may (or may not) be false or "myths". That would go into ant products as well. More people should question these kinds of things, not just DrTmiller products, but do other formicariums and products actually work or needed? Could there be much better, more affordable options? Maybe these materials work, but there could be other better products out there that no one has thought of, or have come up with. There are new types of plastic and all kinds of different materials always being made. Maybe the same could be for ants, maybe a material that is really cheap to work with and works as good or even better than ytong or hydrostone and what not. I know for one Fluon as a barrier works great, but could there actually be better products than fluon? Fluon has been used for years and has been around a long time, could there be something even better made that lasts longer or works even better? Something more "modern" and new? Reacker did say more information is better in that thread, so I assume he agrees with you in this thread that more info on these things and actual facts is better.

Edited by Vendayn, May 9 2017 - 12:51 PM.

[Reacker]

I agree in that it would be a good thing to see the results of his trials so that we know why he is claiming that the stuff works better than regular water. Knowing Terry I would be surprised if he hadn't actually done a lot of testing before releasing the product, and I'd be inclined to believe his claims based on that. 

 

I do not however agree with anything else Sub has said in this thread. His position is so clearly detached from reality that I don't like being included in a sentence like, "Reacker....I assume he agrees with you in this thread".

[Kevin]

do other formicariums and products actually work or needed?

 

Actually, I've found several formicaria that are very well known and popular, but in reality they don't actually work very well when you look at it from a non bias view. I'm not giving names out here, because I don't want to start a war, but I'll just put it out there.

[CrazyLegs]

Most people are unaware of the real costs of designing, manufacturing, testing, packaging and posting things for sale abroad. Terry has done the research for you, designed and produced a neat bottled product and is prepared to send it to your door. I buy my micromesh from China now for $3 a sheet free postage! This item is sold in my own country for $15! I found out recently China is able to ship these things worldwide for $1 and for me to ship one piece of micro mesh back to china would cost me $15 just at the post office! I don't know why this is the case but it just is. At the end of the day it all comes down to rule number one of business.

 

If you don't make a profit your actually running a charity.

[Tyrael]

If less people choose to buy the product and they choose to make their own instead, are you really helping anyone by lowering the value of premade test tube water solutions? While companies do lower prices to try to compete with each other, this form of toxic competition tends to impact the entire industry negatively and ant-keeping is already a very niche hobby. It is my opinion that "large" corporations like byFormica, tarheelants and antscanada are crucial in order to keep the hobby thriving as they are the ones who offer opportunities for beginners to enter the hobby.

 

 

How does offering a cheaper solution not help anyone? If it is cheaper to keep ants, it will be more accessible to more people and thus may grow in popularity. I do agree that "large" businesses are beneficial because economy of scale will make everything cheaper. However, the businesses you listed are far from big enough to do that. Further, they may hurt the community by making ant keeping seem more expensive than it actually is through over-priced merchandise. It's like if grandma just uses a computer to browse Facebook and use email. If she goes into a computer shop, the employees can take advantage of her in two ways: she doesn't know the price of products so they can overcharge her, and she doesn't know what she actually needs so they can sell her things she doesn't need. Misleading grandma into buying a $1000 computer when she only needs a $200 netbook is predatory and immoral. 

 

 

Many things are considered "overpriced" by some people. In my opinion, Apple products and Beats headphones are all overpriced. Better performing hardware can be purchased for a fraction of the price of these devices, and so I make the personal decision not to buy them. And yet Apple remains one of the most profitable companies in the world, because there are people who will still buy their products. It's the exact same case with drtmiller's products. I'm sure many people find them overpriced. These people will make the conscious decision not to buy them, but there will also be people who do chose to buy them. Now if nobody decided to buy byFormica products, I'm sure the company would lower its prices in order to increase profits. However, since the company has maintained the price of the product we must assume that plenty of people are indeed buying this item, and so it is worth whatever amount he is selling it for.

 

I'm glad you brought this up. The success of Apple and Beats is due to their ability to mislead consumers with deceptive marketing. For instance, Beats are in fact low quality headphones that have been marketed to have a prestigious image. Beats also employs deception, such as adding metal weights to give an illusion of build quality. I would argue that AntsCanada and byFormica also employ deception and/or rely on ignorant consumers to drive revenue. For instance, as mentioned here, AntsCanada selling test tubes for over 100x their cost. However, since this thread is about byFormica I will talk more in-depth about that. 

 

1. byFormica uses advertising buzzwords such as "natural, wholesome, non-GMO", etc. Most of these words are misleading buzzwords with no real meaning, while factual phrases like "non-GMO" have no evidence to support the validity of this claim.

 

2. byFormica inappropriately uses federally regulated labelling phrases, such as "excellent source of" without meeting the requirements to do so. Pet and animal foods are both regulated by the FDA. 
Excellent source excerpt: https://www.ecfr.gov...#se21.2.101_113

 

3. byFormica uses the phrase "Safety Information: This product is not a toy, and is recommended for professional consumer use only." to describe a product that is a dyed sugar-water. An odd phrase for such a product, perhaps intended to boost credibility by sounding professional/industrial.

 

4. byFormica products are branded with a registered trademark logo. Registered trademarks are trademarks that are officially registered and accepted by the national trademark office, in this case the United States Patent and Trademark Office. byFormica trademarks do not appear to be registered in the Trademark Electronic Search System (TESS). If I am in error, please direct me to the entry. If it is not registered, yet products are bearing the registered trademark logo, it is potentially trademark fraud and therefore a violation of federal law. 

Trademark info here: https://tmep.uspto.g...900d1e1285.html

TESS can be found here: https://www.uspto.go...demark-database

 

5. When confronted about the efficacy or credibility of the products, the response is hostility rather than hard data to support the product. Although hostility is an understandable defensive response, it looks unprofessional, especially when the thread is purged of these posts afterwards. However, lack of objective data is the most troubling.

 

6. Consumers are mislead into thinking that byFormica is more professional than it is. The previous post referred to it as a "large corporation". Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know byFormica is one person manually mixing and filling bottles in his home. Comparing this to a large corporation such as Apple is incredibly disingenuous. It is a home business. Even comparing it to a mom and pop shop is not appropriate, because they usually have a separate business building and employees. byFormica uses Amazon for its products. I wager the average consumer does not know that anyone can be "Fulfilled by Amazon" if they pay the necessary fees. Thus, a presence on Amazon may give byFormica more credibility compared to it's own website like Tarheel. The fees for fulfillment are offset by the overcharged products.

 

7. byFormica aggressively advertises products to newly registered members of this forum. New members are ignorant. They may be mislead into thinking that these products are necessary, and may not realize that they can easily be created at home for a fraction of the cost. If they want to buy it after understanding the alternatives that is their decision, but they should be aware of the choice. 

 

I presume that Hanlon's Razor applies here and that these are mistakes and practices from inexperience, but they are still troubling. To make it clear: I do not believe that drtmiller is intentionally malicious. Although most companies engage in dishonest advertising, it does not excuse drtmiller. If he was more clear with his data and engaged in more ethical advertising it would reduce conversations like this one.

[Reacker]

The success of Apple and Beats is due to their ability to mislead consumers with deceptive marketing. For instance, Beats are in fact low quality headphones that have been marketed to have a prestigious image. Beats also employs deception, such as adding metal weights to give an illusion of build quality

 

 

Customers aren't being misled when they buy Beats headphones. They're getting exactly what they payed for. The fact that Beats headphones are inferior audio output devices compared to other offerings at similar prices is irrelevant. 

 

Veblen Goods

Edited by Reacker, May 9 2017 - 2:29 PM.

[Tyrael]

 

The success of Apple and Beats is due to their ability to mislead consumers with deceptive marketing. For instance, Beats are in fact low quality headphones that have been marketed to have a prestigious image. Beats also employs deception, such as adding metal weights to give an illusion of build quality

 

 

Customers aren't being misled when they buy Beats headphones. They're getting exactly what they payed for. The fact that Beats headphones are inferior audio output devices compared to other offerings at similar prices is irrelevant. 

 

Veblen Goods

 

Although I agree that they are primarily a luxury brand, look at their marketing:

 

 

 

Beats Solo2 headphones have a wide range of dynamic sound and natural clarity for a more immersive, emotional listening experience, with padded ear cups that buffer outside noise.

 

But anyway, presumably byFormica's intention is to be practical, not luxury, and thus it is mostly irrelevant to talk about this. 

[Kevin]

6. Consumers are mislead into thinking that byFormica is more professional than it is. The previous post referred to it as a "large corporation". Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know byFormica is one person manually mixing and filling bottles in his home. Comparing this to a large corporation such as Apple is incredibly disingenuous. It is a home business. Even comparing it to a mom and pop shop is not appropriate, because they usually have a separate business building and employees. byFormica uses Amazon for its products. I wager the average consumer does not know that anyone can be "Fulfilled by Amazon" if they pay the necessary fees. Thus, a presence on Amazon may give byFormica more credibility compared to it's own website like Tarheel. The fees for fulfillment are offset by the overcharged products.

 

7. byFormica aggressively advertises products to newly registered members of this forum. New members are ignorant. They may be mislead into thinking that these products are necessary, and may not realize that they can easily be created at home for a fraction of the cost. If they want to buy it after understanding the alternatives that is their decision, but they should be aware of the choice. 

 

I think all of your reasons are completely irrevelent to the thread about effectiveness, and you are purposely trying to estrange Byformica, and my question is, for what reason?

 

Six and seven stood out, because of how imbecile they are.

 

Six: Byformica is an extremely reputable company. As an anting company, we cannot correlate a company as big as Apple to a small company such as Byformica - like you said, but it is one of the biggest companies in the anting business. Your interpretation is that Byformica is seeming to be more professional than every other anting supplies specific company, therefore we can indeed say it is a professional operation, as its reputation does prove it. Believe it or not, Byformica used to have a beautiful website (I believe for the Grotube series), which is now down and redirects to Terry's Amazon page. Amazon does indeed make a company seem more professional at the size Byformica is currently and it does make it seem bigger, which is a good thing, and I believe Byformica's standards are coordinating with Amazon's professional feel, 2 day free shipping and all.

 

Seven: Frankly, this is called advertising. Every company advertises - or at least should. New hobbyists are what the product is targeted for. Let's say that the product was for experienced users, would you show your products to people that know how to make similar or working solutions, or make products targeted to the newer audience to help them get started with the hobby providing prepackaged ready-to-use products specifically formulated to serve its purpose with thousands of vouching customers. Woah, the definition of a successful and reputable business.

[Tyrael]

I think all of your reasons are completely irrevelent to the thread about effectiveness, and you are purposely trying to estrange Byformica, and my question is, for what reason?

 

Some of my points are unrelated to efficacy. My main concern is the lack of hard data, but the rest are my concerns about the business. They are additional reasons why I will not purchase their products even if effectiveness is demonstrated, because they are red flags for me. I am not attempting to estrange byFormica. 

 

Your interpretation is that Byformica is seeming to be more professional than every other anting supplies specific company, therefore we can indeed say it is a professional operation, as its reputation does prove it. 

 

Seeming professional does not mean that it is. My concern is that it overly uses professional jargon without meeting the requirements to do so, such as registered trademarks and regulated phrases as described above. The heavy focus of appearing outwardly professional mixed with these problems create a big red flag for me. Considering this, and that I only have anecdotes to go on, it is difficult to determine if it is indeed professional and reputable. 

 

Seven: Frankly, this is called advertising. Every company advertises - or at least should. New hobbyists are what the product is targeted for. Let's say that the product was for experienced users, would you show your products to people that know how to make similar or working solutions, or make products targeted to the newer audience to help them get started with the hobby providing prepackaged ready-to-use products specifically formulated to serve its purpose with thousands of vouching customers. Woah, the definition of a successful and reputable business.

 

As I said, it is the customer's decision if they want to buy a premade solution or make their own. The issue I have is that it is presented as a professional, rigorously tested product that is necessary to keep ants, while lacking any data to indicate that it is better than homemade sugar-water. Are you saying that byFormica has thousands of vouching customers now? I haven't seen such numbers. 

Edited by Tyrael, May 9 2017 - 4:07 PM.

[Kevin]

Seeming professional does not mean that it is. My concern is that it overly uses professional jargon without meeting the requirements to do so, such as registered trademarks and regulated phrases as described above. The heavy focus of appearing outwardly professional mixed with these problems create a big red flag for me. Considering this, and that I only have anecdotes to go on, it is difficult to determine if it is indeed professional and reputable. 

 

 

 

 

 

As I said, it is the customer's decision if they want to buy a premade solution or make their own. The issue I have is that it is presented as a professional, rigorously tested product that is necessary to keep ants, while lacking any data to indicate that it is better than homemade sugar-water. Are you saying that byFormica has thousands of vouching customers now? I haven't seen such numbers. 

 

 

 

Well, what do you have against trying to be professional even if it's apparently not? I think a company that is trying to make itself look proper rather that some of the previous... ehm "companies" created by the small children on this forum? I think a lot of companies are using this "professional jargon", so many food products you'd find in a grocery store must be raising these "red flags"? Smh, talk about not trying to estrange byFormica. Reputation is derived of public opinions and reviews, and as you can see here: https://www.amazon.c...e-bin=byFormica there are some great reviews in there, where I contracted my opinion that byFormica products are professional and quality. There are plenty of threads and reviews on here about them. Sunburst was not intended to be better than any other sugar water, it was intended to be a pre-made formula in which beginners can use to feed their ants worry-free.

[Tyrael]

Well, what do you have against trying to be professional even if it's apparently not? I think a company that is trying to make itself look proper rather that some of the previous... ehm "companies" created by the small children on this forum? I think a lot of companies are using this "professional jargon", so many food products you'd find in a grocery store must be raising these "red flags"? Smh, talk about not trying to estrange byFormica. Reputation is derived of public opinions and reviews, and as you can see here: https://www.amazon.c...e-bin=byFormica there are some great reviews in there, where I contracted my opinion that byFormica products are professional and quality. There are plenty of threads and reviews on here about them. Sunburst was not intended to be better than any other sugar water, it was intended to be a pre-made formula in which beginners can use to feed their ants worry-free.

 

You think there is nothing wrong with presenting yourself as professional without having the credentials to back it up? Do you typically go to doctors that claim to be doctors but don't have degrees? 

 

Yes, a lot of companies do use these phrases, but typically they can back up their factual phrases. However, many use the advertising memes like natural, gluten free and non-GMO, which I find equally distasteful as byFormica using them. There are also companies that make false claims, like homeopathic medicine and certain supplements. These companies are particularly bad, but these things are not regulated so nothing can be done about it. My view of products such as the Sunburst and Formisazine is equal to such products, since like those, byFormica products are not regulated and have little or no evidence to support the efficacy. 

 

Sunburst is specifically marketed to be better than sugar-water. It even says right in the description that it is better than sugar-water. Look at the product description in your link. It also claims to provide micro-nutrients that are not present in sugar and to be more resistant to spoilage than normal sugar-water.

 

A superior alternative to honey, hummingbird nectar, and sugar water - We have perfected the ratio of sugar, water, and other trace minerals to optimize our blend for maximum receptivity with most species of ants.

99.8% natural, wholesome ingredients - high receptivity formula compatible with all species of ants

Product will not spoil, and no refrigeration is required

In addition to sugar, Sunburst supplies the perfect balance of salts and essential micronutrients, commonly absent in captive ant diets, to stimulate appetite and promote natural feeding response

Feed alongside insects and other natural foods for a nutritionally complete diet

Edited by Tyrael, May 9 2017 - 5:34 PM.

[klawfran3]

 

Well, what do you have against trying to be professional even if it's apparently not? I think a company that is trying to make itself look proper rather that some of the previous... ehm "companies" created by the small children on this forum? I think a lot of companies are using this "professional jargon", so many food products you'd find in a grocery store must be raising these "red flags"? Smh, talk about not trying to estrange byFormica. Reputation is derived of public opinions and reviews, and as you can see here: https://www.amazon.c...e-bin=byFormica there are some great reviews in there, where I contracted my opinion that byFormica products are professional and quality. There are plenty of threads and reviews on here about them. Sunburst was not intended to be better than any other sugar water, it was intended to be a pre-made formula in which beginners can use to feed their ants worry-free.

 

You think there is nothing wrong with presenting yourself as professional without having the credentials to back it up? Do you typically go to doctors that claim to be doctors but don't have degrees? 

 

Yes, a lot of companies do use these phrases, but typically they can back up their factual phrases. However, many use the advertising memes like natural, gluten free and non-GMO, which I find equally distasteful as byFormica using them. There are also companies that make false claims, like homeopathic medicine and certain supplements. These companies are particularly bad, but these things are not regulated so nothing can be done about it. My view of products such as the Sunburst and Formisazine is equal to such products, since like those, byFormica products are not regulated and have little or no evidence to support the efficacy. 

 

Sunburst is specifically marketed to be better than sugar-water. It even says right in the description that it is better than sugar-water. Look at the product description in your link. It also claims to provide micro-nutrients that are not present in sugar and to be more resistant to spoilage than normal sugar-water.

 

A superior alternative to honey, hummingbird nectar, and sugar water - We have perfected the ratio of sugar, water, and other trace minerals to optimize our blend for maximum receptivity with most species of ants.

99.8% natural, wholesome ingredients - high receptivity formula compatible with all species of ants

Product will not spoil, and no refrigeration is required

In addition to sugar, Sunburst supplies the perfect balance of salts and essential micronutrients, commonly absent in captive ant diets, to stimulate appetite and promote natural feeding response

Feed alongside insects and other natural foods for a nutritionally complete diet

 

I use sunburst because it's convenient, my ants like it, it doesn't spoil (which is great for a college student like me not having to keep mixing new stuff up), and I can tell when my ants are drinking it since they turn bright yellow. I end up traveling a lot and having a premade solution like this is perfect when I have to have my friends care for my pets. There's less of a chance of messing up and it doesnt spoil, just dries out.

I don't care too much even if it doesn't provide the micronutrients that the description says it does because of it's ease of use and how convenient it is. Would I like to see the data proving it provides these nutrients, sure why not. Am I going to go out of my way to force someone to provide the evidence to the point of insulting and belittling them and their products? No because I have stuff to do and it's really not THAT important to me or the grand scheme of things.

 

I'm really tired of this thread waking up and rearing it's ugly head. Why can't we all just stop arguing and get along, it's really not that hard. If someone makes you upset bring it up with them in private chat, don't air your dirty laundry for everyone to see. Fighting doesn't help the hobby.

 

I've said my part and I'm not getting involved anymore in this thread. Please be excellent to each other.

Edited by klawfran3, May 9 2017 - 8:54 PM.

[Serafine]

Yes, a lot of companies do use these phrases, but typically they can back up their factual phrases.

No they can't. The entire beauty creme industry bases on claims it is not even legally allowed to fulfill. I don't know how laws are in the US but in Germany beauty products ARE NOT ALLOWED to reach deeper skin layers. If the did they would be medical products which are not allowed to be sold outside of pharmacies.

 

However, many use the advertising memes like natural, gluten free and non-GMO,

While I do agree the current gluten-free hype is absolutely ridiculous, noting this on products is GOOD. If you're one of the few people who actually ARE highly allergic to gluten you'd be thankful that you don't permanently run the risk of accidentally eating something that causes your intestines to inflame or melt. Same goes for phenylalanine markings on every bottle of coke (which is even worse because people wo are allergic to it get brain inflammations) and several types of nuts (which can cause people who are allergic to them to suffocate due to massively swollen throats).

There's a reason these problematic ingredients are marked even if they only affect a tiny portion of the population.

Edited by Serafine, May 9 2017 - 10:19 PM.

[Tyrael]

I use sunburst because it's convenient, my ants like it, it doesn't spoil (which is great for a college student like me not having to keep mixing new stuff up), and I can tell when my ants are drinking it since they turn bright yellow. I end up traveling a lot and having a premade solution like this is perfect when I have to have my friends care for my pets. There's less of a chance of messing up and it doesnt spoil, just dries out.

 

I don't care too much even if it doesn't provide the micronutrients that the description says it does because of it's ease of use and how convenient it is. Would I like to see the data proving it provides these nutrients, sure why not. Am I going to go out of my way to force someone to provide the evidence to the point of insulting and belittling them and their products? No because I have stuff to do and it's really not THAT important to me or the grand scheme of things.

 

I'm really tired of this thread waking up and rearing it's ugly head. Why can't we all just stop arguing and get along, it's really not that hard. If someone makes you upset bring it up with them in private chat, don't air your dirty laundry for everyone to see. Fighting doesn't help the hobby.

 

I personally do not feel it is a good value. If you are happy with the effectiveness and cost of the product then by all means purchase and use it. 

 

I'm not particularly going out of my way to "force" him to provide evidence. I am asking — perhaps a little too bluntly — for the evidence. Where have I been insulting and belittling? I'm not fighting. I'm as a cool as a cucumber. I'm merely discussing my opinion on this matter and hoping that he can provide evidence to support his claims. Perhaps you and others are personally invested in this because you/they have bought the product and must justify the purchase. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...supportive_bias

 

No they can't. The entire beauty creme industry bases on claims it is not even legally allowed to fulfill. I don't know how laws are in the US but in Germany beauty products ARE NOT ALLOWED to reach deeper skin layers. If the did they would be medical products which are not allowed to be sold outside of pharmacies.

 

I am not familiar with the claims or regulation of the beauty industry. If they are making factually inaccurate claims they should be held accountable. 

 

While I do agree the current gluten-free hype is absolutely ridiculous, noting this on products is GOOD. If you're one of the few people who actually ARE highly allergic to gluten you'd be thankful that you don't permanently run the risk of accidentally eating something that causes your intestines to inflame or melt. Same goes for phenylalanine markings on every bottle of coke (which is even worse because people wo are allergic to it get brain inflammations) and several types of nuts (which can cause people who are allergic to them to suffocate due to massively swollen throats).

There's a reason these problematic ingredients are marked even if they only affect a tiny portion of the population.

 

I do agree that it is useful for people that are effected by gluten. I was referring to the craze of people not effected by gluten desiring gluten-free products. The labelling is meaningless for those people. Perhaps it was a bad example because it is actually problematic for some people. Consider truly vacuous words like wholesome instead. 

Edited by Tyrael, May 9 2017 - 11:09 PM.

[Michaelofvancouver]

 

 

 

 

How does offering a cheaper solution not help anyone? If it is cheaper to keep ants, it will be more accessible to more people and thus may grow in popularity.

 

While this may seem intuitive and I understand where you're coming from with this point, data shows that there is pretty much no correlation between the price of owning a pet and the popularity of this pet. For example, the 2nd and 3rd most popular pets in the United States are cats and dogs, and they are also two of the most expensive. Horses are more popular than all reptiles combined, and they're far more expensive than a leopard gecko or a corn snake. The thing is, animals like ants and reptiles are niche pets. The reason people don't want to keep ants and snakes isn't the fact that they're expensive. It's because of the stigma surrounding them (ants are disgusting, ant farms are ugly, ants are pests, etc).

 

Before antscanada and other "large" corporations existed, (large as in professional and reputable in the anting community), ants were probably the cheapest pet to own. Queens are free, test tubes are less than a dollar apiece, and cotton is pretty much free as well. However, it cannot be denied that test tubes setup are gross when they get mouldy and definitely don't look attractive whatsoever on your desk. With the rise of nice/professional looking formicaria, ant-keeping has visibly grown as a hobby. If we look back 10 years, the amount of traffic the yuku ant forum was receiving cannot be compared to the amount of traffic this forum gets nowadays. These professional companies definitely influence the public, and help remove the stigma from ant-keeping. For an example of the influence these people can have, if we take a look at the Philippines ant-keeping is far more common than in other similar developing nations. People from the philippines account for more views on my videos than people from all other southeast asian countries combined! The Philippines just so happens to be where Mikey Bustos/Antscanada lives, and so I strongly believe the rise of ant-keeping and the rise of these large influencers is correlated.

 

Anyways, @Subverted. Let's assume you're right. Let's assume that sunburst is literally the same as the solution you made, and that the cost of materials is only 11 cents. If the product wasn't worth whatever amount byFormica was selling it for, then people wouldn't buy it. If you offered the exact same thing for cheaper to every single ant-keeper and spent the same amount of effort on marketing and branding as byFormica has, then obviously people would stop buying the product, and then it would really be only worth whatever amount you were selling it for. You might argue that it's immoral to have such a huge markup on the product, but people are responsible for their own money. Nobody is being forced to buy the product, they are choosing to do so. And if they do choose to buy the product, then for them it's worth whatever they paid for it.

Edited by Michaelofvancouver, May 10 2017 - 3:47 PM.

[Michaelofvancouver]

While I'm still just a spectator here, I just wanted to point out something after reading Michaelofvancouver's post. No matter what the intentions are, in a free-market economy, competition always benefits the consumer.

Yes, competition would definitely benefit the consumer himself, but it wouldn't always benefit the industry. And again, I maintain my position that the rise of ant-keeping as a hobby is directly linked to the rise of ant-keeping companies and organisations. Organisations like this forum, and companies like antscanada make ant-keeping really attainable for newbies.

 

Now if all this consumer wanted was to obtain a cheaper product, then competition would be great! But if this consumer cared about the health and growth of the hobby, I think these organisations and companies should be supported. Of course, regular competition would typically benefit the industry as well, as then different organisations typically then try to improve their product to compete. However, creating a similar product that has the same purpose as a competitors product and then offering this product for free isn't really healthy competition and would likely hurt the competitor more than inspire it to improve.

Edited by Michaelofvancouver, May 10 2017 - 4:00 PM.

[Serafine]

I'm playing Wargame tabletops, so I bought a good amount of plastic/resin terrain pieces (walls, bunkers, houses, trees). Could have made them by myself for a fraction of the cost? Yes, definitely. Did I buy them anyway? Yes I did, either because I found them really pretty or just couldn't bother with sacrificing the time to craft them on my own (i did build a fair amount of terrain though). Buying them saved me a lot of time and effort (and I couldn't screw it up).