95 replies to this topic

[Serafine]

Fine, just continue to damn the keeping exotic ants while at the same time not doing anything about those constantly bragging about all new antpokomon they just got - wasn't there a forum rule forbidding talks about illegal ants (which should affect at least all people from CAN and US)? Why is that constantly ignored over and over again? (newest example in a long row being this exact abomination of a topic that should have been deleted before it even got a second reply)

 

And sorry I'm not telling you everything is perfect here. I actually studied that stuff (and Neozoa are still a special interest), so I know how the situation looks like and what they do where they appear. As long as no action is taken towards eradicating exotic species on a grand scale any small scale attempts of preservation are futile. We can't damn imports of exotic insects and at the same time say "yeah, rheas, turtles and parakeets are fine cause they're cute". That's double standards if not hypocrisy, making the entire discussion obsolete.

Edited by Serafine, January 17 2017 - 12:19 AM.

[dspdrew]

There are no rules here that ban the discussion of the illegal ant trade. What's banned is using this forum as a platform to engage in it.

[Leo]

ants will murder each other, i attempted to introduce two camponotus nicobarensis queens w brood to each other, result? one queen snatched all the brood and tried to kill the other queen. i managed to save her though.

they are polygmous

[Loops117]

Sorry -- I try not to be so inflammatory when bringing up this subject -- but it is frustrating when so many people come to use with questions, ants to identify, and to use all of the resources we create, but when it comes to conservation and local ecology, we're treated like we suddenly don't know what we're talking about. Easing up on an existing problem in order to gratify our vanity or our shallow curiosity is not going to make conservation easier. North America has its own share of nonnative plants and animals, but none of us want things to be any worse than they already are. We don't need to be combated in our efforts to protect what we have, especially when the only positive outcome is allowing entitled children to have a pet they don't need and don't know why they want.

 

I didn’t want to send this because it was getting off subject, but ill add it anyway.

 

I understand what you're saying. I myself have a fascination with all species whether they're exotic or native, ants or not. My interest in all of the species is as you said, "cool pets", but that’s not delimited to only exotic species. The thing is that nobody here except a select few are running experiments on anything over 20 ants/colonies. The only personal gain they would be getting by going native native over exotic is the fact that you can find your own rather than buying one. Granted buying a colony or queen does take some of the fun and reward from the hobby, but both have the same end game. Over time you learn what that specific species requires, likes, and dislikes. This is all experience in the hobby in general. I myself consider any findings in the hobby to be an advancement to the hobby itself, whether it’s good or bad and the level of hobbyist. With as little as we know about each species and more specifically the region in which the species was found, any and all findings could help another hobbyist at any given point.

 

I feel that the shunning of even talking about your non-native ants only hurts the hobby as well, even though it’s not against the rules. There are countless species that are not being researched and experimented on that are in hobbyist hands. Colonies of pseudomyrmex gracilis or camponotus tortuganus that have not a single journal on the forum, knowledge and experience on rearing them in captivity being held back due to statist that can’t deal with the fact that some don’t want native. All this information could be used in the future by someone who found the queen, but will never be available because they’re not native to the area we’re in and the hobbyist didn’t have a permit to obtain them. It’s nonsense! it’s obviously not going to change the fact that people are going to ship ants, and in my opinion it’s making more of a negative impact. Would you rather the hobbyist buy the ants with little knowledge on rearing them and then deciding to let them go or parish due to the fact that they couldn’t find anything on them?

 

I understand the ecological stand point that we’re facing with shipping of ants, but I honestly feel that shipping between state lines should be lifted. I’ve spent enough time in the shipping and produce industry to know that the shipping of ants to hobbyist is the least of our issue. TBH, I feel as though if the species could survive in the area, it would already be here due to already existing shipping regulations. Accidental shipping is a thing, and it’s huge. I feel that the laws only hurt the hobbyist the most, the ones who are paying to obtain the specific ants. I can show you screen shots and pictures of bugs that are being shipped, bags of wild collected acorns being shipped to coastal regions, documents of blue buffalo dog food being shipped to bahia honda (a nature preserve, and luckily the recipient knew how to properly dispose of the ants without introducing them to such a remote area) with full colonies in the bag. I do believe that shipping from outside our boarders should be tightened up. We do have a chance at stopping any more invasive species from other countries, but that too would only happen if we tighten up our shipping regulations in general. Too much freight is left un checked and it’s only a matter of time before anything gets here.

 

It’s not that I’m saying you don’t know what you’re talking about, I just feel that you’re only defending the inevitable. With our unchecked shipping regulations, the hobbyist is the least of our problems. Same goes with collecting ants and GAN, The hobbyist is such a miniscule part of the issue that it won’t solve any part by limiting what they can or can't do. We're not chasing snakes or iguanas in the everglades. We're trying to stop someone from buying an ant or 10, when the same truck that's shipping them can end up with a couple hundred in the cargo due to a nuptial flight.

Edited by Loops117, January 17 2017 - 6:42 AM.

[Batspiderfish]

Thank you for taking so much time to articulate, but what is this judo approach to fixing our ecological problems? Easing up on an invader's ability to disperse and proliferate does *nothing* but make us more vulnerable to invaders. The risks are high, and the rewards are so very low. If any trade proponents were versed in biology at all, particularly genetics and ecology, they would see how horrific so many of these rationalizations are. The people who are educated and responsible for safeguarding our ecosystems to the best of our ability are enforcing these regulations for a reason! We have seen negligent pet-keepers from every walk of life releasing or losing their animals into the wild -- there is nothing special about ant-keepers.

 

I am not trying to be an educational elitist (because those people are ableist/classist and gross) but without a concrete background in biology like I have had, how is it at all possible for hobbyists to actually weigh the risks and rewards of repealing conservational law?

If so-and-so couldn't find information on Pseudomyrmex gracilis, it is because nobody with local access to these ants made a journal about them. John/Jane Doe might have better luck using common sense and researching the habits of other members from this genus. Somebody importing these ants would only be neglecting THEIR native species which are suffering from the same ignorance.

I have been in this hobby for a long time, and there has been a gradual decline in temperance, professionalism, and proficiency, towards the sensationalism and entitlement that the most experienced of us fight regularly. If you consume our content, please refrain from ignoring us in this thing that is most important to us all. The hobby is already hurting as we lose our connectivity to its scientific roots. I have never met an exotic ant enthusiast (here or elsewhere) who has had anything meaningful to contribute to their community.

If you treat something as inevitable, then that is what it will become. There is no evidence to back your claim that any animal which is not already established has no potential to do so. Ant trade enhances the dispersal avenues for nonnative species.

Edited by Batspiderfish, January 17 2017 - 9:22 AM.

[Loops117]

Thank you for taking so much time to articulate, but what is this judo approach to fixing our ecological problems? Easing up on an invader's ability to disperse and proliferate does *nothing* but make us more vulnerable to invaders. The risks are high, and the rewards are so very low. If any trade proponents were versed in biology at all, particularly genetics and ecology, they would see how horrific so many of these rationalizations are. The people who are educated and responsible for safeguarding our ecosystems to the best of our ability are enforcing these regulations for a reason! We have seen negligent pet-keepers from every walk of life releasing or losing their animals into the wild -- there is nothing special about ant-keepers.

 

 

As I said in my last sentence, we’re not tracking iguanas or snakes that would make a 1 in a 1000 case of being accidentally shipped, we’re talking about something that can easily do the exact opposite of those numbers by sending full colonies on accident. Whole trucks sitting in a parkinlot during a nuptial flight and then driving off to another state. How can you not consider the whole entire unchecked shipping industry while only concentrating on ants? You mean to tell me that by stopping hundreds of hobbyist from shipping ants, and the one in a hundred that loses/releases them is going to have any considerable impact over the millions of parcels being shipped daily? The hundreds of thousands of trucks sitting in truck stops overnight then driving across boarders all day are any different?

Do you think these species are incapable of making their way across boarders without our help? As I said, coastal boarders would make sense if we tightened up, but within our own boarders I feel that it won't make a difference. I’m not completely experienced in the entire position that I’m taking, but I feel as if any of the species of bugs from within our coastal boarders could be invasive to another area, they would already be there. I can’t think of anything that is native to one state that is considered an issue anywhere else, but I also don’t have a background in biology. Any and all invasive species I can come up with came from outside our coastal boarders, so it makes sense to me.

 

I am not trying to be an educational elitist (because those people are ableist/classist and gross) but without a concrete background in biology like I have had, how is it at all possible for hobbyists to actually weigh the risks and rewards of repealing conservational law?

 

 I may not have a “concrete” background in biology, but I do have an extensive background in the shipping and produce industry. Both in which I’ve found countless bugs from different states, alive and well package in bundles of bananas or grapes. Colonies of ants in apple bins from sitting in facilities such as Georgia, California and Texas before they’re loaded onto trucks and shipped to various stores. I feel as though that is enough to consider myself of having a valid opinion on the shipping situation, as that is the reason why I said “in my opinion” and “I feel” through my entire response.

 

If so-and-so couldn't find information on Pseudomyrmex gracilis, it is because nobody with local access to these ants made a journal about them. John/Jane Doe might have better luck using common sense and researching the habits of other members from this genus. Somebody importing these ants would only be neglecting THEIR native species which are suffering from the same ignorance.

 

I have been in this hobby for a long time, and there has been a gradual decline in temperance, professionalism, and proficiency, towards the sensationalism and entitlement that the most experienced of us fight regularly. If you consume our content, please refrain from ignoring us in this thing that is most important to us all. The hobby is already hurting as we lose our connectivity to its scientific roots. I have never met an exotic ant enthusiast (here or elsewhere) who has had anything meaningful to contribute to their community.

If you treat something as inevitable, then that is what it will become. Thankfully, there is no evidence to back your claim that any animal which is not already established has no potential to do so. Ant trade enhances the dispersal avenues for nonnative species.

 

 

To wrap it up. I’m not trying to argue the fact that the trade does in fact open avenues for more invasive species, I guess I need more to make sense of it all. It’s hard to see the gray area when I have years of personal experience finding non-native species via accidental shipping. And I’m here to contribute to the community as well. Just because I don’t see eye to eye with some other views doesn’t mean MY opinion and MY views should be rejected because they don’t go along with yours or anyone elses. Rational thinking and questioning the findings of other scientist is what science is all about. I may only be a hobbyist at an above entry level, but were does it start? I yearn for a species of ant that can create huge super colonies that doesn't require hibernation, and i know i would have to obtain them illegally. This doesnt affect the research and documentation i've done on the countless native species i do regularly find.

 

“Thankfully, there is no evidence to back your claim that any animal which is not already established has no potential to do so.”

 

Is there any evidence to back the opposite?

 

Once again. I'm not trying to discredit or bring down anyone else. I'm only stating my opinions and views. 

[AnthonyP163]

In Australia, an ant keeper found 2 Solenopsis Invicta queens. (Obviously the result of ant keepers.) and they decided to surrender the queens to Australian version of USDA (Can't remember name of person or organization) and they cleared out that infested area. The point is, if ant keepers all tried to get rid of the invasive species, and help native species stay established, it might be better. For example, I like Lasius Neoniger being in my yard, but it's almost always Tetramorium. So when I find a colony of Lasius Neoniger, I help them by feeding them bugs, and leftovers from meals. Spending a bit of time is a small price to pay. Now I have a living colony of Lasius Neoniger, in my yard, hibernating. I look forward to seeing them again in the spring.

Please help the native ants in your area, if you really want exotic ants, just find out more about your native ants, and learn to appreciate, as I did.

Edited by AnthonyP163, January 17 2017 - 10:39 AM.

[Batspiderfish]

Yes, there is evidence that a location which previously did not have an invader may eventually obtain one. That is what makes an organism non-native -- that it wasn't here before.

 

Everybody states their opinions and views in abundance, but there isn't much to substantiate them other than selfishness. Your concern is not to minimize the dispersal of non-native species.

[Batspiderfish]

In Australia, an ant keeper found 2 Solenopsis Invicta queens. (Obviously the result of ant keepers.) and they decided to surrender the queens to Australian version of USDA (Can't remember name of person or organization) and they cleared out that infested area. The point is, if ant keepers all tried to get rid of the invasive species, and help native species stay established, it might be better. For example, I like Lasius Neoniger being in my yard, but it's almost always Tetramorium. So when I find a colony of Lasius Neoniger, I help them by feeding them bugs, and leftovers from meals. Spending a bit of time is a small price to pay. Now I have a living colony of Lasius Neoniger, in my yard, hibernating. I look forward to seeing them again in the spring.

Please help the native ants in your area, if you really want exotic ants, just find out more about your native ants, and learn to appreciate, as I did.

This can be tricky. It is not the best practice to provide artificial aid to native organisms, but to protect or return the natural habitats in which these organisms used to live. Almost the moment you stop feeding them, things will snap back into place from when before you were helping. There is also the risk of spreading parasites or infection if the food was cultured.
 

Physical environments direct changes within communities of organisms.

Edited by Batspiderfish, January 17 2017 - 11:10 AM.

[Arrowscotch]

Man this forum thread really brought out the worst in some people. Why don't we just accept the fact that some people have have a different view on exotic pets and move on. Although I do have to say, if I were to keep a tropical species of ants where I live they would definitely die if they ever got loose.

[Alabama Anter]

Arrowscotch I agree 100%! 

[Batspiderfish]

No concern of mine -- just non-scientists making claims they cannot support. Go ahead and think what you want -- the people who know what they are talking about are still there safeguarding the environment and making discoveries for your benefit.

Washington is predicted to be part of Solenopsis invicta's total range, and it has already been found in northern Oregon, so good luck with that. Solenopsis invicta can survive freezing winters -- there's only competition from native, temperate ants holding them back.

[Alabama Anter]

BatSpiderFish calm down xD

[Loops117]

No concern of mine -- just non-scientists making claims they cannot support. Go ahead and think what you want -- the people who know what they are talking about are still there safeguarding the environment and making discoveries for your benefit.

 

How can you even say that? Other then a background in biology, have you any experience in shipping? Or possibly any other area that you would see the problem? My claims are backed by actual proof, yet you ignore it all and say i have no backing. If you actually read any of it, you would read what i stated as a fact, and what i feel is going to happen due to our shipping regulations. It's the fact that you're blind to what i am actually claiming, and that the ban doesnt help when it comes to actual shipping regulations. You have provided 0 proof that the shipping ban has any effect on the invasive process when it comes to species within our boarders, yet you'll completely disregard all cases I'm pointing out.

[Batspiderfish]

 

No concern of mine -- just non-scientists making claims they cannot support. Go ahead and think what you want -- the people who know what they are talking about are still there safeguarding the environment and making discoveries for your benefit.

 

How can you even say that? Other then a background in biology, have you any experience in shipping? Or possibly any other area that you would see the problem? My claims are backed by actual proof, yet you ignore it all and say i have no backing. If you actually read any of it, you would read what i stated as a fact, and what i feel is going to happen due to our shipping regulations. It's the fact that you're blind to what i am actually claiming, and that the ban doesnt help when it comes to actual shipping regulations. You have provided 0 proof that the shipping ban has any effect on the invasive process when it comes to species within our boarders, yet you'll completely disregard all cases I'm pointing out.

 

If we agree that ant trade increases the dispersal of nonnatve species then forbidding it reduces that dispersal which would otherwise exist. The burden of proof is on you as to whether the laws are effective. I can't make an argument for the invasive ants that AREN'T there under our importation laws. I've already demonstrated that the only benefit of allowing importation is so hobbyists can spoil themselves with something they don't need. I don't need to hear another kid saying that they KNOW what will happen if an exotic species were to escape. Anecdote does not pass as science. Such comments create a dangerous precedent, even if they are not credible. If addressing your point on shipment of stowaways had any bearing on whether it is beneficial for hobbyists to trade ants, then I would argue against it. I agree that human infrastructure is the primary dispersal method of invasive species, but that doesn't make legalized ant trade a good idea.

Edited by Batspiderfish, January 17 2017 - 1:58 PM.

[Loops117]

 

 

No concern of mine -- just non-scientists making claims they cannot support. Go ahead and think what you want -- the people who know what they are talking about are still there safeguarding the environment and making discoveries for your benefit.

 

How can you even say that? Other then a background in biology, have you any experience in shipping? Or possibly any other area that you would see the problem? My claims are backed by actual proof, yet you ignore it all and say i have no backing. If you actually read any of it, you would read what i stated as a fact, and what i feel is going to happen due to our shipping regulations. It's the fact that you're blind to what i am actually claiming, and that the ban doesnt help when it comes to actual shipping regulations. You have provided 0 proof that the shipping ban has any effect on the invasive process when it comes to species within our boarders, yet you'll completely disregard all cases I'm pointing out.

 

If we agree that ant trade increases the dispersal of nonnatve species then forbidding it reduces that dispersal which would otherwise exist. The burden of proof is on you as to whether the laws are effective. I can't make an argument for the invasive ants that AREN'T there under our importation laws. I've already demonstrated that the only benefit of allowing importation is so hobbyists can spoil themselves with something they don't need. I don't need to hear another kid saying that they KNOW what will happen if an exotic species were to escape. Anecdote does not pass as science. Such comments create a dangerous precedent, even if they are not credible.

 

Yes, i agreed on that. My argument isn't that we should lift it. It's that it's not making an impact if you take in the rest of the shipping industry into account. Inevitable if we don't check that.

[Batspiderfish]

 

 

 

No concern of mine -- just non-scientists making claims they cannot support. Go ahead and think what you want -- the people who know what they are talking about are still there safeguarding the environment and making discoveries for your benefit.

 

How can you even say that? Other then a background in biology, have you any experience in shipping? Or possibly any other area that you would see the problem? My claims are backed by actual proof, yet you ignore it all and say i have no backing. If you actually read any of it, you would read what i stated as a fact, and what i feel is going to happen due to our shipping regulations. It's the fact that you're blind to what i am actually claiming, and that the ban doesnt help when it comes to actual shipping regulations. You have provided 0 proof that the shipping ban has any effect on the invasive process when it comes to species within our boarders, yet you'll completely disregard all cases I'm pointing out.

 

If we agree that ant trade increases the dispersal of nonnatve species then forbidding it reduces that dispersal which would otherwise exist. The burden of proof is on you as to whether the laws are effective. I can't make an argument for the invasive ants that AREN'T there under our importation laws. I've already demonstrated that the only benefit of allowing importation is so hobbyists can spoil themselves with something they don't need. I don't need to hear another kid saying that they KNOW what will happen if an exotic species were to escape. Anecdote does not pass as science. Such comments create a dangerous precedent, even if they are not credible.

 

Yes, i agreed on that. My argument isn't that we should lift it. It's that it's not making an impact if you take in the rest of the shipping industry into account. Inevitable if we don't check that.

 

Then would you agree that pure human indulgence is a pretty flimsy reason to help invasive species do what they are already doing? Do doctors need to take preventative measures like washing their hands if most patients are going to become sick through contact with other patients? And if the doctors said that washing their hands wasn't any fun, would you care?

[Serafine]

just non-scientists making claims they cannot support. Go ahead and think what you want -- the people who know what they are talking about are still there safeguarding the environment and making discoveries for your benefit.

So you need a master degree in logistics to have your everyday experience considered noteworthy? And you're complaining people are not listening to scientists? This is double standards at it's finest (and not like good science works at all).
  
 
And I am by no means for the importation and proliferation of exotic species from other continents - in fact I think parrots and parakeets as pets should be forbidden in Europe, not just because they're exotic animals but also because next to no person I have ever met has the environment required to properly house them (that counts to a lesser degree for Guinea pigs and desert rodents and desert reptiles as well - our native mice, rats and rabbits should be interesting enough to keep) - but we can't complain about people importing exotic animals while at the same time utterly ignoring the spread of certain species that are already here. At least some of these - rheas, grey parrots, chinese ducks - should be fairly easy targets and not too hard to wipe out, so why is nobody doing anything about THEM?

 

 

Arrowscotch I agree 100%!

YOU shouldn't write anything here. You are one of the worst examples for someone deliberately ignoring not just forums rules, chat rules and state laws over and over again but also constantly bragging about all the new antpokomon you acquired and are going to get and you got more than one colony killed by dealing with people who can be described as dubious at best and probably have zero idea what they are doing when sending ants around with the mail.

Edited by Serafine, January 17 2017 - 3:31 PM.

[Loops117]

 

 

 

 

No concern of mine -- just non-scientists making claims they cannot support. Go ahead and think what you want -- the people who know what they are talking about are still there safeguarding the environment and making discoveries for your benefit.

 

How can you even say that? Other then a background in biology, have you any experience in shipping? Or possibly any other area that you would see the problem? My claims are backed by actual proof, yet you ignore it all and say i have no backing. If you actually read any of it, you would read what i stated as a fact, and what i feel is going to happen due to our shipping regulations. It's the fact that you're blind to what i am actually claiming, and that the ban doesnt help when it comes to actual shipping regulations. You have provided 0 proof that the shipping ban has any effect on the invasive process when it comes to species within our boarders, yet you'll completely disregard all cases I'm pointing out.

 

If we agree that ant trade increases the dispersal of nonnatve species then forbidding it reduces that dispersal which would otherwise exist. The burden of proof is on you as to whether the laws are effective. I can't make an argument for the invasive ants that AREN'T there under our importation laws. I've already demonstrated that the only benefit of allowing importation is so hobbyists can spoil themselves with something they don't need. I don't need to hear another kid saying that they KNOW what will happen if an exotic species were to escape. Anecdote does not pass as science. Such comments create a dangerous precedent, even if they are not credible.

 

Yes, i agreed on that. My argument isn't that we should lift it. It's that it's not making an impact if you take in the rest of the shipping industry into account. Inevitable if we don't check that.

 

Then would you agree that pure human indulgence is a pretty flimsy reason to help invasive species do what they are already doing? Do doctors need to take preventative measures like washing their hands if most patients are going to become sick through contact with other patients? And if the doctors said that washing their hands wasn't any fun, would you care?

 

I do think it's flimsy. I also think there should be some kind of invasive level set to the more common ants that are wanting to be obtained. I am not an expert on any particular species, but i'm sure a biologist such as yourself could put together a list of benign species that would be OK for transportation between boarders as we do with other trades. My beef is more or less with the blanket law rather then the lifting entirely. I thinks it's safe to say that A.texana wouldn't survive or become an invasive issue in michigan if it had gotten loose.

Edited by Loops117, January 17 2017 - 3:33 PM.

[Batspiderfish]

 

Then would you agree that pure human indulgence is a pretty flimsy reason to help invasive species do what they are already doing? Do doctors need to take preventative measures like washing their hands if most patients are going to become sick through contact with other patients? And if the doctors said that washing their hands wasn't any fun, would you care?

I do think it's flimsy. I also think there should be some kind of invasive level set to the more common ants that are wanting to be obtained. I am not an expert on any particular species, but i'm sure a biologist such as yourself could put together a list of benign species that would be OK for transportation between boarders as we do with other trades. My beef is more or less with the blanket law rather then the lifting entirely. I thinks it's safe to say that A.texana wouldn't survive or become an invasive issue in michigan if it had gotten loose.

 

My interests are in conservation. Allowing hobbyists access to ants without them even understanding why the exotic ant is appealing goes directly against what I believe in. I plan to take the hobby in the opposite direction by invigorating people's interest in native North American ant genera and species. It is not a coincidence that no biologist encourages a lift on the importation ban. I am attempting to raise colonies that have never been kept before in captivity, and I am not interested in preventing other people from doing the same by diluting the hobby with somebody else's native, "boring" ants.