67 replies to this topic

[Mdrogun]

The problem with the law is that only the hobbyists follow it. In Vendayn's journal on imported ants there are 1 or more instances where ants are introduced by plants brought in by the land lord. The land lord is probably unaware of the law and he probably doesn't even know he transported ants across state lines. However, in the case of a hobbyist getting a pet colony, they would know to not release the ants and kill them if they couldn't keep them anymore. Also, I doubt you would ever get in trouble for taking ants across state lines. It's like JediPeacesFrog's mention of cigarettes, no one would ever know and no one would ever care.

[gcsnelling]

(The problem with the law is that only the hobbyists follow it) I wish this were true.

 

( In Vendayn's journal on imported ants there are 1 or more instances where ants are introduced by plants brought in by the land lord. The land lord is probably unaware of the law and he probably doesn't even know he transported ants across state lines.) All too true, improperly inspected agricultural material is a huge problem.

 

 

 

(However, in the case of a hobbyist getting a pet colony, they would know to not release the ants and kill them if they couldn't keep them anymore.) Definitely not the case, just recently there was a thread on this very board  by member who got a colony of ants from a rather well known myrmecologist. He decided he couldn't keep them and turned them lose in his yard where they proceeded to decimate the ant populations in his yard.

 

(Also, I doubt you would ever get in trouble for taking ants across state lines. It's like JediPeacesFrog's mention of cigarettes, no one would ever know and no one would ever care.) Possibly true however it depends on how much effort the border check point feels like putting in when you cross the border. California for example used to be very , VERY thorough but are much less so these days. However they have the authority to pretty much tear your car apart if they feel the need. Most if not all states can but may chose not perform these inspections when you enter the state.

[Mdrogun]

 

(Also, I doubt you would ever get in trouble for taking ants across state lines. It's like JediPeacesFrog's mention of cigarettes, no one would ever know and no one would ever care.) Possibly true however it depends on how much effort the border check point feels like putting in when you cross the border. California for example used to be very , VERY thorough but are much less so these days. However they have the authority to pretty much tear your car apart if they feel the need. Most if not all states can but may chose not perform these inspections when you enter the state.

Maybe checkpoints in between states is a west coast thing? I live in the midwest and I have traveled through most of the states east of Kansas, and I have never come across a checkpoint between states. Even if I had, how would they find ants? They would have to find little test tubes and would have to sit there going through all of our stuff for half an hour.

 

As far as hobbyists releasing ants goes, I meant ants imported from around the globe or other states. I release colonies I catch and raise locally all the time. As long as it's not in massive numbers, like releasing 30 mature colonies or growing and releasing invasive species I don't see a problem with it.

[dspdrew]

Maybe checkpoints in between states is a west coast thing?

 

We even have them no where near the border simply because they got the authority to put them 60 miles in from Mexico. Hell, if they could get permission, they would have them every 10 miles here. That's how we roll in the land of the free.

[JediPeaceFrog]

Well, I enjoy stimulating debate, I must say. It's always nice to discuss something important to us all once I awhile. I will say this...I notice that it is perfectly legal to ship Queens from any species anywhere you want in Europe. The
Europeans have been doing this for decades. I have yet to see the continent of Europe fall prey to ant-catastrophes like crops being wiped out, or any animals being made extinct, or any humans being devoured by mutant armies of non-native species running amok. Just saying...

[Subverted]

Along the California border (and at a couple places within the state) there are agricultural checkpoints where they have absolute authority to search your vehicle...but they won't really care unless you are bringing in plants or fruit without disclosing it and/or lying about it.

 

Any plant pest or pathogen introduction has the possibility to cause hundreds of millions of dollars damage to crops/agriculture under the right circumstances and that threat was recognized as being significant even back in the 1920s when the checkpoints were established: https://www.cdfa.ca....on/borders.html

[kellakk]

Well, I enjoy stimulating debate, I must say. It's always nice to discuss something important to us all once I awhile. I will say this...I notice that it is perfectly legal to ship Queens from any species anywhere you want in Europe. The Europeans have been doing this for decades. I have yet to see the continent of Europe fall prey to ant-catastrophes like crops being wiped out, or any animals being made extinct, or any humans being devoured by mutant armies of non-native species running amok. Just saying...

 

The important thing to remember, though, is that the Europeans bring in mainly tropical ants that won't do well in temperate regions where there is snow. It's much different when you're talking about the United States, where the whole south of the country is vulnerable to (and plagued by) tropical ants.

[dspdrew]

Along the California border (and at a couple places within the state) there are agricultural checkpoints where they have absolute authority to search your vehicle...but they wont really care unless you are bringing in plants or fruit without disclosing it and/or lying about it.

 

Any plant pest or pathogen introduction has the possibility to cause hundreds of millions of dollars damage to crops/agriculture under the right circumstances and that threat was recognized as being significant even back in the 1920s when the checkpoints were established: https://www.cdfa.ca....on/borders.html

 

Actually they (US Border Patrol "border" checkpoints 60 miles inside the state) are mainly there to check for drugs. Something they would do (like I said) every 10 miles if they could.

 

I'm not talking about the state ones that are actually at the border.

[Mdrogun]

 

Along the California border (and at a couple places within the state) there are agricultural checkpoints where they have absolute authority to search your vehicle...but they won't really care unless you are bringing in plants or fruit without disclosing it and/or lying about it.

 

Any plant pest or pathogen introduction has the possibility to cause hundreds of millions of dollars damage to crops/agriculture under the right circumstances and that threat was recognized as being significant even back in the 1920s when the checkpoints were established: https://www.cdfa.ca....on/borders.html

 

Actually they (US Border Patrol "border" checkpoints 60 miles inside the state) are mainly there to check for drugs. Something they would do (like I said) every 10 miles if they could.

 

I'm not talking about the state ones that are actually at the border.

 

I think it probably has something to do with california's climate being very susceptible to invasives. I have never seen a checkpoint in Illinois. I don't really think Illinois has many invasive animals as it is. I know we have Tetramorium and  invasive shrubery is taking over in our forests, but nothing that damages crops. It's surprising though, because Illinois is basically Chicago and corn. We produce more corn than every other state except Iowa and we produce about the same amount of corn as Nebraska. I'm surprised we are not more concerned about invasive animals considering that a lot of people in Illinois make a living by farming corn.

Edited by Mdrogun, May 10 2016 - 6:25 PM.

[Reacker]

1: If you seriously think the United States Government is sitting around with agents monitoring the handful of ant-hobbyist forums, waiting to pounce if it looks like somebody is going to send queens across state lines, then you are woefully uneducated with all of the real dangerous and deadly serious problems in the world today.

 

Something to keep in mind on the web is that even if you're extremely unlikely to attract the attention of a physical member of law enforcement by openly planning illicit behavior in obscure corners of the web like this, you're still leaving incriminating evidence out in the open that is trivially easy to archive by law enforcement for scouring in a few years when the technology is good enough to do it automatically. 

 

Think roughly the same technology that Google recently used to beat that Go champion, but instead trained to analyze text and assign an estimated likelihood that the text contains evidence of a crime being planned or committed. Bodies of text assigned a sufficiently high likelihood of containing evidence of criminal activity are automatically pushed into a queue for review by officers at the relevant agencies. In such a manner the entire open web can be searched for anyone stupid enough to plan and discuss such things in the open, and to pursue action against those who did so in the past if not too much time has gone by. 

 

It's an obvious application of the technology and even if law enforcement isn't using it yet they will be as soon as it becomes feasible. (soon rather than later). 

[JediPeaceFrog]

First of all, read the entire post. I never 'planned' any sale or transport of queens across state lines. I merely questioned the sanity of a law that states that even though the same species exists across State lines, it's illegal to transport them. Ok? Are we clear? Secondly, my post also simply questioned why the continent of Europe hasn't fallen into an abyss of chaos and destruction considering it's perfectly legal to transport ants across National lines. Third, I'm a Veteran of this grrat nations, and I've served 3 tours of duty in Afghanistan & Iraq. I don't appreciate being called 'stupid' by you, nor does the 1984-style science-fiction la-la land you think is happening right now re: law enforcement scare me in any way. If you want to cower in a corner, go right ahead. Any questions?

[Reacker]

Holy crap dude calm down.

.

.

.

.

I hope you don't go off like that in person.Your reply reads like the navy seal copy pasta and I can't even tell if you're being serious or not.

.

.

.

.

.

I wasn't accusing you (or anyone in this thread) of anything or calling you stupid; though if I was, you being a veteran would have no relevance to anything at all. Plenty of veterans are stupid and do illegal things, and being a veteran doesn't grant you special argumentative privileges that you can use in a discussion that doesn't directly revolve around the subject of military service. Most of the veterans that I know already know this and don't go around pretending that their combat experience gives them any special knowledge or clout anywhere that isn't the battlefield.

 

The subject of the quote, which is all I was talking about, was that it's unlikely that posting details of petty crimes like moving ants around would be caught because of how labor intensive it would be for law enforcement to read every post on every forum. My reply was simply pointing out that even if a member of law enforcement never reads this forum or other obscure corners of the internet, it still isn't smart to conduct illegal dealings publicly for the reasons I stated. You can fairly disagree with my point, but the ridiculously confrontational response on your part certainly isn't warranted and isn't helpful at all. I also didn't quote and don't care to discuss European border politics, so I don't know why you brought it up except to guess that maybe you do want to talk about it to anyone who will listen. 

 

Thanks for your service to this grrat nation. I'll be over here cowering in my corner if you still want to rant at me. 

[dspdrew]

Just want to say this. 1984 is a lot different than today. The technology today can allow the government to build profiles on almost everyone with ease. If anyone thinks they would not have an interest in doing this for possible future use, I would say THEY are living in la-la land.

[Shareallicu]

Yeah, and we can't change the laws from here, so no good griping. I will say this though: our current government allow people from every terrorist-producing country in the world to flood our borders with absolutely zero vetting; but will throw me in jail if I try to move an ant queen across state lines. Ridiculous...and telling.

I agree!  It's ludicrous! 

[Shareallicu]

Well, I enjoy stimulating debate, I must say. It's always nice to discuss something important to us all once I awhile. I will say this...I notice that it is perfectly legal to ship Queens from any species anywhere you want in Europe. The
Europeans have been doing this for decades. I have yet to see the continent of Europe fall prey to ant-catastrophes like crops being wiped out, or any animals being made extinct, or any humans being devoured by mutant armies of non-native species running amok. Just saying...

I agree!  Europe has already proven it's not a big deal to transport ants across borders.  Why is America so slow.

[Shareallicu]

I still have not found where it specifically states it's illegal to transport ANTS across USA borders.  I asked the USDA, maybe they can show me where to find that specific law..

[spider_creations]

it is illegal to transport or sell queen ants across state, and often county lines for risk of damaging the environment. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) requires permits for shipping any insect, and there are hefty fines and jail time for doing so without a permit or violating a permit

Someone wants to trade vericolor that I have and they have the permits so would I be able to send them to him if he uses the permits he also said he can send me exotic ants is it illgal to own (not ship) exotic ants ?

[gcsnelling]

You better be darn sure those permits actually exist. I can guarantee you with 100 percent certainty that the various concerned agencies can and do monitor these boards and act on information the obtain here up to posing as both buyers and sellers. The environment in the U.S is far more favorable to exotic ants should they escape or be released which is part the reason the laws are so restrictive. Additionally it is I think safe to say that virtually all of the exotic ants for sale in Europe are smuggled out of their countries of origin.

Edited by gcsnelling, September 9 2016 - 5:24 PM.

[Subverted]

Its a very simple law, Shareallicu, the plant protection act. I quoted some of the relevant parts for you: https://www.aphis.us...ads/PPAText.pdf

First up is how they define a plant pest. Their definition covers all non-predatory insects and some that are predators (eating bees is considered indirect harm to plants). Presumably ants that farm aphids (a huge amount) or collect plant matter are also included under this umbrella.

(14) PLANT PEST
.—The term ‘‘plant pest’’ means any living
stage of any of the following that can directly or indirectly
injure, cause damage to, or cause disease in any plant or
plant product:
(A) A protozoan.
( B) A nonhuman animal.
( C) A parasitic plant.
(D) A bacterium.
(E) A fungus.
(F) A virus or viroid.
(G) An infectious agent or other pathogen.
(H) Any article similar to or allied with any of the
articles specified in the preceding subparagraphs.

SEC. 411. REGULATION OF MOVEMENT OF PLANT PESTS.
(a) PROHIBITION OF UNAUTHORIZED MOVEMENT OF PLANT PESTS
.—Except as provided in subsection ©, no person shall import,
enter, export, or move in interstate commerce any plant pest, unless
the importation, entry, exportation, or movement is authorized
under general or specific permit and is in accordance with such
regulations as the Secretary may issue to prevent the introduction
of plant pests into the United States or the dissemination of plant
pests within the United States.

(d) PROHIBITION OF UNAUTHORIZED MAILING OF PLANT PESTS
.—
(1) I
N GENERAL
.—Any letter, parcel, box, or other package
containing any plant pest, whether sealed as letter-rate postal
matter or not, is nonmailable and shall not knowingly be con-
veyed in the mail or delivered from any post office or by
any mail carrier, unless the letter, parcel, box, or other package
is mailed in compliance with such regulations as the Secretary
may issue to prevent the dissemination of plant pests into
the United States or interstate.

c) PROHIBITION ON MOVEMENT OF ITEMS WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION
.—No person shall move from a port of entry or interstate
any imported plant, plant product, biological control organism, plant
pest, noxious weed, article, or means of conveyance unless the
imported plant, plant product, biological control organism, plant
pest, noxious weed, article, or means of conveyance—
(1) is inspected and authorized for entry into or transit
movement through the United States; or
(2) is otherwise released by the Secretary.

SEC. 424. PENALTIES FOR VIOLATION.
(a) CRIMINAL PENALTIES
.—Any person that knowingly violates
this title, or that knowingly forges, counterfeits, or, without
authority from the Secretary, uses, alters, defaces, or destroys any
certificate, permit, or other document provided for in this title
shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction, shall be
fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, imprisoned
for a period not exceeding 1 year, or both.
( B) CIVIL PENALTIES
.—
(1) I
N GENERAL
.—Any person that violates this title, or
that forges, counterfeits, or, without authority from the Sec-
retary, uses, alters, defaces, or destroys any certificate, permit,
or other document provided for in this title may, after notice
and opportunity for a hearing on the record, be assessed a
civil penalty by the Secretary that does not exceed the greater
of—
(A) $50,000 in the case of any individual (except that
the civil penalty may not exceed $1,000 in the case of
an initial violation of this title by an individual moving
regulated articles not for monetary gain), $250,000 in the
case of any other person for each violation, and $500,000
for all violations adjudicated in a single proceeding; or
( B) twice the gross gain or gross loss for any violation,
forgery, counterfeiting, unauthorized use, defacing, or
destruction of a certificate, permit, or other document pro-
vided for in this title that results in the person deriving
pecuniary gain or causing pecuniary loss to another.

[dspdrew]

(14) PLANT PEST
.—The term ‘‘plant pest’’ means any living
stage of any of the following that can directly or indirectly
injure, cause damage to, or cause disease in any plant or
plant product:
(A) A protozoan.
( [ ] A nonhuman animal.
( C) A parasitic plant.
(D) A bacterium.
(E) A fungus.
(F) A virus or viroid.
(G) An infectious agent or other pathogen.
(H) Any article similar to or allied with any of the
articles specified in the preceding subparagraphs.

 

This is a fancy way of saying whatever we decide it is, humans excluded.