55 replies to this topic

[Kaelwizard]

Oh so ants do need vitamins?
That was kind of where my question was aiming at.

Currently I use a sugar water test tube.
I'll try to offer both sunburst and sugar water in the future to see what they prefer.
Maybe I'll see an I crease in activity if they're juicing harder

I think most organisms need vitamins if I am not mistaken.

[AntaholicAnonymous]

Oh so ants do need vitamins?
That was kind of where my question was aiming at.

Currently I use a sugar water test tube.
I'll try to offer both sunburst and sugar water in the future to see what they prefer.
Maybe I'll see an I crease in activity if they're juicing harder

I think most organisms need vitamins if I am not mistaken.

As far as I know yes but I had a hard time researching what vitamins ants need and what the best sources are.

Sugarwater alone could be all they need after they hatch but that sounded too simple to be true

[Kaelwizard]

 

 

Oh so ants do need vitamins?
That was kind of where my question was aiming at.

Currently I use a sugar water test tube.
I'll try to offer both sunburst and sugar water in the future to see what they prefer.
Maybe I'll see an I crease in activity if they're juicing harder

I think most organisms need vitamins if I am not mistaken.

As far as I know yes but I had a hard time researching what vitamins ants need and what the best sources are.

Sugarwater alone could be all they need after they hatch but that sounded too simple to be true

 

Most people's colonies can thrive off of that and insects so I doubt there is any more that they need.

Edited by Kaelwizard, March 4 2021 - 5:57 AM.

[ConcordAntman]

No, I thinks it’s clear that while sugars and protein are the prime components of ant nutrition, minerals and vitamins do play a role. Just take the symbiotic relationship between Camponotus spp. gut bacteria (Blochmannia sp) and the ant’s nitrogen metabolism https://onlinelibrar....1111/aec.12840 (sorry there’s a paywall but the abstract has the information). There’s also this https://www.quantama...velop-20200909/

We just don’t know enough about ant’s dietary requirements to define what each species needs. 

[Spazmops]

I've used honey water exclusively across all of my colonies and I've never had an issue, but that doesn't mean it's better than sunburst. 

[gs5248]

Not having enough vitamins may be the reason why most captive colonies don't produce alates. However, they probably get a lot of vitamins from the insects you would give them.

I've used honey water exclusively across all of my colonies and I've never had an issue, but that doesn't mean it's better than sunburst. 

Honey tends to have a lot more nutrients than sugar water, which makes sense since it is a main food source of bee's. 

Edited by gs5248, March 5 2021 - 5:53 PM.

[AleeGuy]

Oh so ants do need vitamins?
That was kind of where my question was aiming at.

Currently I use a sugar water test tube.
I'll try to offer both sunburst and sugar water in the future to see what they prefer.
Maybe I'll see an I crease in activity if they're juicing harder

To be honest they do not need any vitamims from fruits and stuff like that. You can give them only sugar water/sunburst/honey as a source of carbs and they will still thrive. But they do need different sources of proteins to get all the nutrients they need, I would not really think about what fruits to give them so instead thought about which feeders I/you should give them. At least 2 feeders will be enough if they are full of nutrients. I would take into consideration dubia roaches, red runners, fruit flies, mealworms, maybe circkets but some species refuse to consume them sometimes.

[ConcordAntman]

Hmmm, not sure I’d agree with that. I don’t think we know enough about ant’s dietary requirements to suggest they don’t need vitamins from fruits or other sources. If we know Camponotus sp seek out urine and bird feces to capture urea, what don’t we know about the 12,000 other species? I agree that our ants gain nutrients from live or fresh frozen feeders but I’d wager a species diet in the wild is vastly more varied and nutritious than anything we can concoct in captivity. 

[AleeGuy]

Hmmm, not sure I’d agree with that. I don’t think we know enough about ant’s dietary requirements to suggest they don’t need vitamins from fruits or other sources. If we know Camponotus sp seek out urine and bird feces to capture urea, what don’t we know about the 12,000 other species? I agree that our ants gain nutrients from live or fresh frozen feeders but I’d wager a species diet in the wild is vastly more varied and nutritious than anything we can concoct in captivity.

mate nobody feeds them with urea in captivity, they might be doing it because of a lack of resources in the wild that they get in the captivity(because they thrive without getting them). We don't really have to know about other 12000 species what type of urea with feces they prefer(lol), there is lots of ant keepers who have probably kept the sp. before you found them so you would already know what the species you caught prefer by other ant keepers experience with them(obviously not all the species because some are pretty rare to find ayk). We don't really have to guess what would like some c. pennsylvanicus would prefer. But it might be somewhat true about some undescribed or understudied species.

Edited by AleeGuy, March 5 2021 - 6:37 AM.

[ANTdrew]

Many people do feed urea to their captive Camponotus colonies.

[Kaelwizard]

 

Hmmm, not sure I’d agree with that. I don’t think we know enough about ant’s dietary requirements to suggest they don’t need vitamins from fruits or other sources. If we know Camponotus sp seek out urine and bird feces to capture urea, what don’t we know about the 12,000 other species? I agree that our ants gain nutrients from live or fresh frozen feeders but I’d wager a species diet in the wild is vastly more varied and nutritious than anything we can concoct in captivity.

mate nobody feeds them with urea in captivity, they might be doing it because of a lack of resources in the wild that they get in the captivity(because they thrive without getting them). We don't really have to know about other 12000 species what type of urea with feces they prefer(lol), there is lots of ant keepers who have probably kept the sp. before you found them so you would already know what the species you caught prefer by other ant keepers experience with them(obviously not all the species because some are pretty rare to find ayk). We don't really have to guess what would like some c. pennsylvanicus would prefer. But it might be somewhat true about some undescribed or understudied species.

Members of this forum have speculated that the downfall of some captive Camponotus sp. colonies may have been due to lack of urea. Besides, as ANTdrew stated, people are feeding their colonies urea. If I remember correctly, there was even a member who gave his colony his own or an animal's urine. Also, who are you to say that someone's colony is thriving without urea? For all we know if it was given urea, it could have been doing better. Furthermore, not all species require urea, it is just that Camponotus sp. have a symbiotic relationship with a certain species of bacteria. It isn't something that you can just push aside and say a colony is fine without it.

Edited by Kaelwizard, March 5 2021 - 6:56 AM.

[AleeGuy]

Hmmm, not sure I’d agree with that. I don’t think we know enough about ant’s dietary requirements to suggest they don’t need vitamins from fruits or other sources. If we know Camponotus sp seek out urine and bird feces to capture urea, what don’t we know about the 12,000 other species? I agree that our ants gain nutrients from live or fresh frozen feeders but I’d wager a species diet in the wild is vastly more varied and nutritious than anything we can concoct in captivity.

mate nobody feeds them with urea in captivity, they might be doing it because of a lack of resources in the wild that they get in the captivity(because they thrive without getting them). We don't really have to know about other 12000 species what type of urea with feces they prefer(lol), there is lots of ant keepers who have probably kept the sp. before you found them so you would already know what the species you caught prefer by other ant keepers experience with them(obviously not all the species because some are pretty rare to find ayk). We don't really have to guess what would like some c. pennsylvanicus would prefer. But it might be somewhat true about some undescribed or understudied species.

Members of this forum have speculated that the downfall of some captive Camponotus sp. colonies may have been due to lack of urea. Besides, as ANTdrew stated, people are feeding their colonies urea. Also, who are you to say that someone's colony is thriving without urea? For all we know if it was given urea, it could have been doing better. Furthermore, not all species require urea, it is just that Camponotus sp. have a symbiotic relationship with a certain species of bacteria. It isn't something that you can just push aside and say a colony is fine without it.

They literally do fine without it. Then name me 1 species that will not make it without urea in *captivity*.

Edited by AleeGuy, March 5 2021 - 6:57 AM.

[Kaelwizard]

 

 

 

Hmmm, not sure I’d agree with that. I don’t think we know enough about ant’s dietary requirements to suggest they don’t need vitamins from fruits or other sources. If we know Camponotus sp seek out urine and bird feces to capture urea, what don’t we know about the 12,000 other species? I agree that our ants gain nutrients from live or fresh frozen feeders but I’d wager a species diet in the wild is vastly more varied and nutritious than anything we can concoct in captivity.

mate nobody feeds them with urea in captivity, they might be doing it because of a lack of resources in the wild that they get in the captivity(because they thrive without getting them). We don't really have to know about other 12000 species what type of urea with feces they prefer(lol), there is lots of ant keepers who have probably kept the sp. before you found them so you would already know what the species you caught prefer by other ant keepers experience with them(obviously not all the species because some are pretty rare to find ayk). We don't really have to guess what would like some c. pennsylvanicus would prefer. But it might be somewhat true about some undescribed or understudied species.

Members of this forum have speculated that the downfall of some captive Camponotus sp. colonies may have been due to lack of urea. Besides, as ANTdrew stated, people are feeding their colonies urea. Also, who are you to say that someone's colony is thriving without urea? For all we know if it was given urea, it could have been doing better. Furthermore, not all species require urea, it is just that Camponotus sp. have a symbiotic relationship with a certain species of bacteria. It isn't something that you can just push aside and say a colony is fine without it.

They literally do fine without it. Then, name me 1 species that will not make it without urea in captivity.

 

You do realize it is a whole genus, with thousands of species, and you have no scientific backing for your claim? The point is, they could be doing better if they had urea. Your first claim was also already proven wrong, as members do indeed feed their colonies urea. Some research regarding the topic:

 

"Various insects engage in microbial mutualisms in which the reciprocal benefits exceed the costs. Ants of the genus Camponotus benefit from nutrient supplementation by their mutualistic endosymbiotic bacteria, Blochmannia, but suffer a cost in tolerating and regulating the symbiont. This cost suggests that the ants face secondary consequences such as susceptibility to pathogenic infection and transmission. In order to elucidate the symbiont’s effects on development and disease defence, Blochmannia floridanus was reduced in colonies of Camponotus floridanus using antibiotics. Colonies with reduced symbiont levels exhibited workers of smaller body size, smaller colony size, and a lower major-to-minor worker caste ratio, indicating the symbiont’s crucial role in development. Moreover, these ants had decreased cuticular melanisation, yet higher resistance to the entomopathogen Metarhizium brunneum, suggesting that the symbiont reduces the ants’ ability to fight infection, despite the availability of melanin to aid in mounting an immune response. While the benefits of improved growth and development likely drive the mutualism, the symbiont imposes a critical trade-off. The ants’ increased susceptibility to infection exacerbates the danger of pathogen transmission, a significant risk given ants’ social lifestyle. Thus, the results warrant research into potential adaptations of the ants and pathogens that remedy and exploit the described disease vulnerability." (article: https://www.mdpi.com...450/9/2/58/htm).

 

So basically, the urea is beneficial to colony growth, but increases risk for infection.

Edited by Kaelwizard, March 5 2021 - 7:09 AM.

[KitsAntVa]

that isn't one species

[Kaelwizard]

that isn't one species

What are you talking about? The research studied C. floridanus specifically.

[KitsAntVa]

Oh well I didn't see that part. You see camponotus can be picky about their food sometimes and I understand what everyone is saying. Camponotus like bird poop like lasius tend aphids, its a relationship that benefits each other. Camponotus and lasius though do not need aphids or animal urea to survive. Its all about getting through founding with camponotus and then your colony will live.

[Kaelwizard]

Oh well I didn't see that part. You see camponotus can be picky about their food sometimes and I understand what everyone is saying. Camponotus like bird poop like lasius tend aphids, its a relationship that benefits each other. Camponotus and lasius though do not need aphids or animal urea to survive. Its all about getting through founding with camponotus and then your colony will live.

While that is true, those of us who want to give our colonies the best lives possible should try to learn about their behaviors in the wild.

Edited by Kaelwizard, March 5 2021 - 7:15 AM.

[AleeGuy]

Hmmm, not sure I’d agree with that. I don’t think we know enough about ant’s dietary requirements to suggest they don’t need vitamins from fruits or other sources. If we know Camponotus sp seek out urine and bird feces to capture urea, what don’t we know about the 12,000 other species? I agree that our ants gain nutrients from live or fresh frozen feeders but I’d wager a species diet in the wild is vastly more varied and nutritious than anything we can concoct in captivity.

mate nobody feeds them with urea in captivity, they might be doing it because of a lack of resources in the wild that they get in the captivity(because they thrive without getting them). We don't really have to know about other 12000 species what type of urea with feces they prefer(lol), there is lots of ant keepers who have probably kept the sp. before you found them so you would already know what the species you caught prefer by other ant keepers experience with them(obviously not all the species because some are pretty rare to find ayk). We don't really have to guess what would like some c. pennsylvanicus would prefer. But it might be somewhat true about some undescribed or understudied species.

Members of this forum have speculated that the downfall of some captive Camponotus sp. colonies may have been due to lack of urea. Besides, as ANTdrew stated, people are feeding their colonies urea. Also, who are you to say that someone's colony is thriving without urea? For all we know if it was given urea, it could have been doing better. Furthermore, not all species require urea, it is just that Camponotus sp. have a symbiotic relationship with a certain species of bacteria. It isn't something that you can just push aside and say a colony is fine without it.

They literally do fine without it. Then, name me 1 species that will not make it without urea in captivity.

You do realize it is a whole genus, with thousands of species, and you have no scientific backing for your claim? The point is, they could be doing better if they had urea. Your first claim was also already proven wrong, as members do indeed feed their colonies urea. Some research regarding the topic:

"Various insects engage in microbial mutualisms in which the reciprocal benefits exceed the costs. Ants of the genus Camponotus benefit from nutrient supplementation by their mutualistic endosymbiotic bacteria, Blochmannia, but suffer a cost in tolerating and regulating the symbiont. This cost suggests that the ants face secondary consequences such as susceptibility to pathogenic infection and transmission. In order to elucidate the symbiont’s effects on development and disease defence, Blochmannia floridanus was reduced in colonies of Camponotus floridanus using antibiotics. Colonies with reduced symbiont levels exhibited workers of smaller body size, smaller colony size, and a lower major-to-minor worker caste ratio, indicating the symbiont’s crucial role in development. Moreover, these ants had decreased cuticular melanisation, yet higher resistance to the entomopathogen Metarhizium brunneum, suggesting that the symbiont reduces the ants’ ability to fight infection, despite the availability of melanin to aid in mounting an immune response. While the benefits of improved growth and development likely drive the mutualism, the symbiont imposes a critical trade-off. The ants’ increased susceptibility to infection exacerbates the danger of pathogen transmission, a significant risk given ants’ social lifestyle. Thus, the results warrant research into potential adaptations of the ants and pathogens that remedy and exploit the described disease vulnerability." (article: https://www.mdpi.com...450/9/2/58/htm).

So basically, the urea is beneficial to colony growth, but increases risk for infection.

I've seen people feed them with urea(sorry about that). It says that they are symbiont with Blochmannia but I don't get how they are related to urea(I'm not disapproving, just didn't get that)?

[Kaelwizard]

I believe the Blochmannia use urea to help the Camponotus get amino acids or something like that. When looking it up it was a little too complicated for me to understand.

[drtrmiller]

I'd like to thank everyone for their participation, feedback, and questions in this thread.  Unfortunately, the discussion has veered vastly off the original topic and the other discussions ongoing would be better discussed in their own thread.  Doing so would make the information easier to find for other users interested in the same topic.