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SO! Odontomachus catching in California?


31 replies to this topic

#1 Offline antsandmore - Posted January 7 2021 - 2:52 PM

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yes, this is the question. Should I catch odontomachus in california! i personally think that it would be awesome to keep trap jaws...but, i wonder if catching a few queens will not be good for their population. 


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#2 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted January 7 2021 - 3:00 PM

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yes, this is the question. Should I catch odontomachus in california! i personally think that it would be awesome to keep trap jaws...but, i wonder if catching a few queens will not be good for their population. 

Go ahead, but make sure you are indeed within the Cali border.


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#3 Offline CheetoLord02 - Posted January 7 2021 - 3:02 PM

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Good luck even finding them in the first place. As far as I'm aware, the only "proof" of Odontomachus in CA is a personal report from G.C. Snelling that was very close to the border of Arizona. However, no specimens were collected or images taken to back up this claim, and looking at the documented distribution of the western Odontomachus species, the only record with a reasonable distance from California is a single O. clarus record in Baja California, which is closer to the Mexican border rather than the Arizonan one, which doesn't line up with the description Snelling gave for the population he found. If any keeper in Cali does find Odontomachus in-state, the main priority should be collecting and preserving specimens for proper documentation rather than catching a queen to keep.


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#4 Offline Antkeeper01 - Posted January 7 2021 - 3:11 PM

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#5 Offline antsandmore - Posted January 7 2021 - 3:18 PM

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Good luck even finding them in the first place. As far as I'm aware, the only "proof" of Odontomachus in CA is a personal report from G.C. Snelling that was very close to the border of Arizona. However, no specimens were collected or images taken to back up this claim, and looking at the documented distribution of the western Odontomachus species, the only record with a reasonable distance from California is a single O. clarus record in Baja California, which is closer to the Mexican border rather than the Arizonan one, which doesn't line up with the description Snelling gave for the population he found. If any keeper in Cali does find Odontomachus in-state, the main priority should be collecting and preserving specimens for proper documentation rather than catching a queen to keep.

Thank you for the info!


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#6 Offline Swirlysnowflake - Posted January 7 2021 - 4:43 PM

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yes, this is the question. Should I catch odontomachus in california! i personally think that it would be awesome to keep trap jaws...but, i wonder if catching a few queens will not be good for their population. 

Highly unlikely that Odontomachus are in CA. It's sad, but true :( Only way you can get them right now is with a permit. Arizona populations may eventually spread into Southern CA, but that's not guaranteed. 


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#7 Online gcsnelling - Posted January 7 2021 - 6:11 PM

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Good luck even finding them in the first place. As far as I'm aware, the only "proof" of Odontomachus in CA is a personal report from G.C. Snelling that was very close to the border of Arizona. However, no specimens were collected or images taken to back up this claim, and looking at the documented distribution of the western Odontomachus species, the only record with a reasonable distance from California is a single O. clarus record in Baja California, which is closer to the Mexican border rather than the Arizonan one, which doesn't line up with the description Snelling gave for the population he found. If any keeper in Cali does find Odontomachus in-state, the main priority should be collecting and preserving specimens for proper documentation rather than catching a queen to keep.

For what it is worth, my father is the one that saw the specimen, however he to was skeptical as to the accuracy of the label data. This was a specimen he examined as part of a project he was working on.  He and I both looked for additional specimens in the area of collection and were unable to locate them. Not too surprising given the secretive nature of the genus in what can be considered marginal habitats ( even in Arizona where the genus is fairly common it is hard to find unless conditions are perfect) and due to the fact that a large portion of presumed habitat is now under houses. My guess is that if the ant was in California it could well be gone.


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#8 Offline CheetoLord02 - Posted January 7 2021 - 6:22 PM

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Good luck even finding them in the first place. As far as I'm aware, the only "proof" of Odontomachus in CA is a personal report from G.C. Snelling that was very close to the border of Arizona. However, no specimens were collected or images taken to back up this claim, and looking at the documented distribution of the western Odontomachus species, the only record with a reasonable distance from California is a single O. clarus record in Baja California, which is closer to the Mexican border rather than the Arizonan one, which doesn't line up with the description Snelling gave for the population he found. If any keeper in Cali does find Odontomachus in-state, the main priority should be collecting and preserving specimens for proper documentation rather than catching a queen to keep.

For what it is worth, my father is the one that saw the specimen, however he to was skeptical as to the accuracy of the label data. This was a specimen he examined as part of a project he was working on.  He and I both looked for additional specimens in the area of collection and were unable to locate them. Not too surprising given the secretive nature of the genus in what can be considered marginal habitats ( even in Arizona where the genus is fairly common it is hard to find unless conditions are perfect) and due to the fact that a large portion of presumed habitat is now under houses. My guess is that if the ant was in California it could well be gone.

 

This is actually a very valuable account of the event. Everything I've heard about it has mostly been hear-say. I have found a single place in Arizona with a seemingly large and/or dense Odontomachus population, and I have even found O. desertorum on the campus of a high school, but they definitely are not a common genus all things considered.


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#9 Offline antsandmore - Posted January 8 2021 - 9:27 AM

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so basically, If somebody were to find odontomachus, they need to study them instead of keeping them? so bascially, instead of keeping them as pets, the purpose for keeping them has to be studying their habits, where you found them, etc? or am i understanding this wrong?


Ants I am keeping:

  • Crematogaster colony, queen and 15+ workers coming strong!

#10 Offline CheetoLord02 - Posted January 8 2021 - 9:38 AM

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so basically, If somebody were to find odontomachus, they need to study them instead of keeping them? so bascially, instead of keeping them as pets, the purpose for keeping them has to be studying their habits, where you found them, etc? or am i understanding this wrong?

First priority should absolutely be documentation. Collect specimens. Mark down coordinates, the soil type in the area, and the environment in which they were nesting, if a nest is found, and then send the preserved specimens into antweb for them to be imaged and documented properly.


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#11 Offline antsandmore - Posted January 8 2021 - 9:54 AM

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so basically, If somebody were to find odontomachus, they need to study them instead of keeping them? so bascially, instead of keeping them as pets, the purpose for keeping them has to be studying their habits, where you found them, etc? or am i understanding this wrong?

First priority should absolutely be documentation. Collect specimens. Mark down coordinates, the soil type in the area, and the environment in which they were nesting, if a nest is found, and then send the preserved specimens into antweb for them to be imaged and documented properly.

 

thank you! so the only way to keep odontomachus in CA is pretty much getting a permit?


Ants I am keeping:

  • Crematogaster colony, queen and 15+ workers coming strong!

#12 Offline CheetoLord02 - Posted January 8 2021 - 11:27 AM

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so basically, If somebody were to find odontomachus, they need to study them instead of keeping them? so bascially, instead of keeping them as pets, the purpose for keeping them has to be studying their habits, where you found them, etc? or am i understanding this wrong?

First priority should absolutely be documentation. Collect specimens. Mark down coordinates, the soil type in the area, and the environment in which they were nesting, if a nest is found, and then send the preserved specimens into antweb for them to be imaged and documented properly.

 

thank you! so the only way to keep odontomachus in CA is pretty much getting a permit?

 

Seems that way. A California O. clarus population is unlikely to exist in the first place, and even if it does it'll be a hell of a task finding it. It'd take far less effort to just get a permit for a common eastern US Odontomachus species and buy from there, where they're not very rare.


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#13 Offline antsandmore - Posted January 8 2021 - 1:06 PM

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so basically, If somebody were to find odontomachus, they need to study them instead of keeping them? so bascially, instead of keeping them as pets, the purpose for keeping them has to be studying their habits, where you found them, etc? or am i understanding this wrong?

First priority should absolutely be documentation. Collect specimens. Mark down coordinates, the soil type in the area, and the environment in which they were nesting, if a nest is found, and then send the preserved specimens into antweb for them to be imaged and documented properly.

 

thank you! so the only way to keep odontomachus in CA is pretty much getting a permit?

 

Seems that way. A California O. clarus population is unlikely to exist in the first place, and even if it does it'll be a hell of a task finding it. It'd take far less effort to just get a permit for a common eastern US Odontomachus species and buy from there, where they're not very rare.

 

wait wait wait wait. Yes, so if there is a california O.Clarus population, and even if it took a lot of effort, do you think i could send some specimens somewhere and then keep them?

 

Also, is there any specific age for ppq 526 permits?


Ants I am keeping:

  • Crematogaster colony, queen and 15+ workers coming strong!

#14 Offline Swirlysnowflake - Posted January 8 2021 - 1:10 PM

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so basically, If somebody were to find odontomachus, they need to study them instead of keeping them? so bascially, instead of keeping them as pets, the purpose for keeping them has to be studying their habits, where you found them, etc? or am i understanding this wrong?

First priority should absolutely be documentation. Collect specimens. Mark down coordinates, the soil type in the area, and the environment in which they were nesting, if a nest is found, and then send the preserved specimens into antweb for them to be imaged and documented properly.

 

thank you! so the only way to keep odontomachus in CA is pretty much getting a permit?

 

Seems that way. A California O. clarus population is unlikely to exist in the first place, and even if it does it'll be a hell of a task finding it. It'd take far less effort to just get a permit for a common eastern US Odontomachus species and buy from there, where they're not very rare.

 

wait wait wait wait. Yes, so if there is a california O.Clarus population, and even if it took a lot of effort, do you think i could send some specimens somewhere and then keep them?

 

Also, is there any specific age for ppq 526 permits?

 

You'll probably need to be above 18. Ask your parents, that's what I'm doing (I'm trying to get an Odontomachus permit as well)


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#15 Offline ponerinecat - Posted January 8 2021 - 1:42 PM

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Don't even try to keep them would be my advice. Such a small population if it's even still hanging on is better off preserved. Documentation is all that's needed.


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#16 Offline Arthroverts - Posted January 8 2021 - 3:42 PM

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so basically, If somebody were to find odontomachus, they need to study them instead of keeping them? so bascially, instead of keeping them as pets, the purpose for keeping them has to be studying their habits, where you found them, etc? or am i understanding this wrong?

First priority should absolutely be documentation. Collect specimens. Mark down coordinates, the soil type in the area, and the environment in which they were nesting, if a nest is found, and then send the preserved specimens into antweb for them to be imaged and documented properly.

 

thank you! so the only way to keep odontomachus in CA is pretty much getting a permit?

 

Seems that way. A California O. clarus population is unlikely to exist in the first place, and even if it does it'll be a hell of a task finding it. It'd take far less effort to just get a permit for a common eastern US Odontomachus species and buy from there, where they're not very rare.

 

wait wait wait wait. Yes, so if there is a california O.Clarus population, and even if it took a lot of effort, do you think i could send some specimens somewhere and then keep them?

 

Also, is there any specific age for ppq 526 permits?

 

 

One has to be of 18 years of age or older to apply. I know quite a few people have gone through their parents however; the parents end up being the "directors" and the minor being an "approved docent" who works with the specimen in question.

 

Thanks,

 

Arthroverts


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#17 Online gcsnelling - Posted January 8 2021 - 4:08 PM

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Don't even try to keep them would be my advice. Such a small population if it's even still hanging on is better off preserved. Documentation is all that's needed.

IF they are found in California specimens should be collected for deposition in one or more collections for future study.



#18 Online gcsnelling - Posted January 8 2021 - 4:17 PM

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"This is actually a very valuable account of the event. Everything I've heard about it has mostly been hear-say. I have found a single place in Arizona with a seemingly large and/or dense Odontomachus population, and I have even found O. desertorum on the campus of a high school, but they definitely are not a common genus all things considered."

 

 

Actually rarely encountered is a far more appropriate way of putting it. In my experience when the conditions are correct they can be on of the commonest ants I find when turning rocks in proper habitat. They can at times  be fairly conspicuous as well. I have found mounds being actively built around the base of plants.

 

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#19 Offline antsandmore - Posted January 8 2021 - 5:32 PM

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so, when a colony is found, collect specimens of every single worker and queen, then send it to a place where people study them? lol and if i really want to keep, i can just apply for a permit. nice


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#20 Online gcsnelling - Posted January 8 2021 - 6:51 PM

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No need to collect every single worker, 6-10 workers is usually considered an adequate sample size for study purposes. However if you find the genus is California, you will be lucky if you find more than one or two workers.


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