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AC did it again


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#101 Offline AntsDakota - Posted April 7 2020 - 6:08 AM

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Who were you chastised by?

Apparently, releasing captive colonies is VERY unethical and proving we DON’T CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT because releasing colonies
1. could potentially introduce disease
2. Captivity somehow affects colonies in ways that WE STILL ARE UNSURE OF
I’m sure if they were here they would be fuming reading this right now.
Not that I agreed with them, it made me angry, but there was nothing I could do about it.
In this forum we are all here to share and learn, I know I am .  WE  all contribute our part.  Please let no one here be upset or offended. AntDakota, you do NOT have to argue at all.  I have noted your posts and enthusiasm for what you have contributed  here, so keep it up.  Believe me I have to have sit down with my professors and committee members and it can be so frustrating.  Even to agree on a paragraph wording in a co-authored paper can be excruciating but it is the process.  I hope we may all have that process here. When I was young I wished such things a forum as this one existed, but it did not, so I am appreciative and grateful for it.  Through collaboration and listening so much may be had by all.
I’m not trying to argue, I’m trying to present it in the way it was presented to me. I wanted to believe what you were saying now then, but there was no one who would openly support it.

"God made..... all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. (including ants) And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 NIV version


#102 Offline AntsDakota - Posted April 7 2020 - 6:12 AM

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I was trying to show you what I was taught by them, so you could either denounce it or have an ‘oh’ moment. I was hoping for the former, though.

"God made..... all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. (including ants) And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 NIV version


#103 Offline Barristan - Posted April 7 2020 - 7:37 AM

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I released a small Camponotus vagus colony around 70 workers in 2011 into my garden. I prepared the location, I chose a sunny location and placed several rotten tree stumps there, so they could build their nest in one of them. Almost 9 years later the colony is still alive and I observed several nuptial flights over the years.

But I also tried it with other species and they all died. So the colony has to be large enough to survive the competition from other ant colonies.

I would note that colony size may be A factor but it may not be THE factor and in fact a set of factors may be what gives a colony a chance to survive. C. vagus in research has been described as medium level aggressive and one that defends its food sources (Vepsalainen, K. and Pisarski, B. 1982. Assembly of island ant communities. Annales Zoologici Fennici 19: 327-335. and Savlainen, R. and Vepsalainen, K. 1988. A competition hierarchy among boreal ants: impact on resource partitioning and community structure. Oikos 51: 135-155).

So it may have been your colony was just "suited" for survival in space you placed it which by the way from your description would be its preferred location (Czechowski, W. 2005. Nest competition between Camponotus vagus (Scopoli, 1763) and Camponotus herculeanus (Linnaeus, 1758) (Hymenoptera: Formicidae) in the Bialowieza Forest (Poland). Myrmecologische Nachrichten 7: 43-45)
I would add some species have facultative phenotypes, such as in Tapinoma sessile that when given new conditions (urbanized environments) they express these phenotypes when in natural settings they are rarely or not expressed , such as polygyny over monogyny or polydomy over monodomy or submissiveness over overt aggressiveness. Again, it is about drawing conclusions from a few observations. This happens much in the biological sciences, well in just about any human endeavor. I am only mentioning this because I would like to keep us mindful of that. I very much appreciate all the work fellow formiculturalists of all levels with their contributions and sharing.


Well, have I said that it was the only factor?

But please tell me more about things I already know, you myrmecologists like to hear yourself talk.

Edited by Barristan, April 7 2020 - 7:39 AM.


#104 Offline FeedTheAnts - Posted April 7 2020 - 8:01 AM

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I released a small Camponotus vagus colony around 70 workers in 2011 into my garden. I prepared the location, I chose a sunny location and placed several rotten tree stumps there, so they could build their nest in one of them. Almost 9 years later the colony is still alive and I observed several nuptial flights over the years.

But I also tried it with other species and they all died. So the colony has to be large enough to survive the competition from other ant colonies.

I would note that colony size may be A factor but it may not be THE factor and in fact a set of factors may be what gives a colony a chance to survive. C. vagus in research has been described as medium level aggressive and one that defends its food sources (Vepsalainen, K. and Pisarski, B. 1982. Assembly of island ant communities. Annales Zoologici Fennici 19: 327-335. and Savlainen, R. and Vepsalainen, K. 1988. A competition hierarchy among boreal ants: impact on resource partitioning and community structure. Oikos 51: 135-155).

So it may have been your colony was just "suited" for survival in space you placed it which by the way from your description would be its preferred location (Czechowski, W. 2005. Nest competition between Camponotus vagus (Scopoli, 1763) and Camponotus herculeanus (Linnaeus, 1758) (Hymenoptera: Formicidae) in the Bialowieza Forest (Poland). Myrmecologische Nachrichten 7: 43-45)
I would add some species have facultative phenotypes, such as in Tapinoma sessile that when given new conditions (urbanized environments) they express these phenotypes when in natural settings they are rarely or not expressed , such as polygyny over monogyny or polydomy over monodomy or submissiveness over overt aggressiveness. Again, it is about drawing conclusions from a few observations. This happens much in the biological sciences, well in just about any human endeavor. I am only mentioning this because I would like to keep us mindful of that. I very much appreciate all the work fellow formiculturalists of all levels with their contributions and sharing.

 


Well, have I said that it was the only factor?

But please tell me more about things I already know, you myrmecologists like to hear yourself talk.

 

No, you didn't state that it was the only factor, but you did claim that the buck stops at colony size.  "So the colony has to be large enough to survive the competition from other ant colonies." 

 

Stating that a factor is so important that it has to be in the colony's favor, and stating that it is the only factor are essentially the same thing here. The colony may not have to be "large enough" in order to survive removal from captivity. I think you did the right thing by prepping the location you released them in, and that was probably more important (given that there were no established colonies already in the wood) than the colony being 70 workers strong. Which is not large btw, and certainly would have been nothing close enough if confronted with any real competition.

 

I don't mean to be another pit of hot air in this endless thread, but your response to Purdue was a little rude, and I felt the need to point out the flaw in your statement.


Edited by FeedTheAnts, April 7 2020 - 8:09 AM.

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#105 Offline Barristan - Posted April 7 2020 - 8:05 AM

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Being large enough can mean 50+ for one species and 400+ for another species, so it doesn't only depend on colony size. So yes it has to be large enough to survive. How large that depends on other factors.



#106 Offline PurdueEntomology - Posted April 7 2020 - 8:12 AM

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I released a small Camponotus vagus colony around 70 workers in 2011 into my garden. I prepared the location, I chose a sunny location and placed several rotten tree stumps there, so they could build their nest in one of them. Almost 9 years later the colony is still alive and I observed several nuptial flights over the years.

But I also tried it with other species and they all died. So the colony has to be large enough to survive the competition from other ant colonies.

I would note that colony size may be A factor but it may not be THE factor and in fact a set of factors may be what gives a colony a chance to survive. C. vagus in research has been described as medium level aggressive and one that defends its food sources (Vepsalainen, K. and Pisarski, B. 1982. Assembly of island ant communities. Annales Zoologici Fennici 19: 327-335. and Savlainen, R. and Vepsalainen, K. 1988. A competition hierarchy among boreal ants: impact on resource partitioning and community structure. Oikos 51: 135-155).

So it may have been your colony was just "suited" for survival in space you placed it which by the way from your description would be its preferred location (Czechowski, W. 2005. Nest competition between Camponotus vagus (Scopoli, 1763) and Camponotus herculeanus (Linnaeus, 1758) (Hymenoptera: Formicidae) in the Bialowieza Forest (Poland). Myrmecologische Nachrichten 7: 43-45)
I would add some species have facultative phenotypes, such as in Tapinoma sessile that when given new conditions (urbanized environments) they express these phenotypes when in natural settings they are rarely or not expressed , such as polygyny over monogyny or polydomy over monodomy or submissiveness over overt aggressiveness. Again, it is about drawing conclusions from a few observations. This happens much in the biological sciences, well in just about any human endeavor. I am only mentioning this because I would like to keep us mindful of that. I very much appreciate all the work fellow formiculturalists of all levels with their contributions and sharing.

 


Well, have I said that it was the only factor?

But please tell me more about things I already know, you myrmecologists like to hear yourself talk.

 

No, you didn't state that it was the only factor, but you did claim that the buck stops at colony size.  "So the colony has to be large enough to survive the competition from other ant colonies." 

 

Stating that a factor is so important that it has to be in the colony's favor, and stating that it is the only factor are essentially the same thing here.

 

Hmm, Barristan personally I am just sharing and I need not hear myself talk.  A defensive attitude and sarcasm are not called for.   Since this is a forum what I have written is not singularly directed at you, but to be read by all members for consideration.   though you may have been the catalyst, in the end if I have stated something unwarranted or lacking support please direct me to that and I will amend, otherwise it is sharing in a manner that I do and one in which I am trained.  


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#107 Offline PurdueEntomology - Posted April 7 2020 - 8:21 AM

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I was trying to show you what I was taught by them, so you could either denounce it or have an ‘oh’ moment. I was hoping for the former, though.

I see, I would say continue to try your best to express what you want others to understand and take from you.  It is always a challenge to engage with fellow enthusiast as each has his or her knowledge, experience etc from which he or she speaks.  I certainly have learned not to be offended nor get frustrated or disheartened, but to make space for each.  Of course I will try to clarify where I think a participant in  a thread or conversation seems to be taking the affair bit too personally. It is unfortunate when others seem to take offense at commenting at their posts with more than a "like" or "thumbs up".  As for me mine are a bit "academic" but that is just where I am and what I do and whether it's ants or astronomy or bonsai or any thing else I have a passion for, I get sort of geeky.  Cheers!


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#108 Offline Ants_Dakota - Posted April 7 2020 - 8:37 AM

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Very good advice. We should express our opinions, yet not battle over them.


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#109 Offline Serafine - Posted April 7 2020 - 9:16 AM

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Do managed bees have negative effects on wild bees?

Yes they do. There's a reason the Varroa mite has spread like wildfire and it's national and internation shipping of honey bees. This is visible all around the world, particularly in countries like the US where bee hives are transported through the entire country to pollinate fruit trees because the local farmers managed to wipe out most of the natural polinators. While doing their work those bees disperse their parasites throughout their range, infecting other honey bee colonies as well as wild bees, while simultaniously outcompeting the wild bees (especially the solitairy ones) for food.
 

I was wondering the exact thing about the claim that released colonies die quickly. I’d like to see research on this, but I feel it is very different than releasing a captive bred tiger that didn’t properly learn how to hunt, for instance. Wouldn’t the collective instincts of the colony kick in? It’s not like ants need to be taught advanced skills by their parents or something.

The choice of where to found her colony is the most important decision in an ant colony's life. A queen needs to find a place where it doesn't immediately get exterminated by other more established colonies, it needs access to water and a stable food source. Just think about the trillions of Lasius niger queens ejected from their nests all across Europe every summer and how few of them actually manage to build an adult colony that can produce it's own alates after several years of development. Most fledgling colonies get quickly wiped out by other ants, others just can't secure enough food to make it through winter (or lesser forms of hostile weather).

The question is not whether an ant colony has the skills to theoretically make it in the wild, the question is can it find a proper living space. The chance of that happening when they just get dumped into a city park is really low, unless they are so big and overpowering that they're immediately the biggest fish in the water and can just wipe out an established colony to take over their existing nest and their territory.


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#110 Offline PurdueEntomology - Posted April 7 2020 - 9:33 AM

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Do managed bees have negative effects on wild bees?

Yes they do. There's a reason the Varroa mite has spread like wildfire and it's national and internation shipping of honey bees. This is visible all around the world, particularly in countries like the US where bee hives are transported through the entire country to pollinate fruit trees because the local farmers managed to wipe out most of the natural polinators. While doing their work those bees disperse their parasites throughout their range, infecting other honey bee colonies as well as wild bees, while simultaniously outcompeting the wild bees (especially the solitairy ones) for food.
 

I was wondering the exact thing about the claim that released colonies die quickly. I’d like to see research on this, but I feel it is very different than releasing a captive bred tiger that didn’t properly learn how to hunt, for instance. Wouldn’t the collective instincts of the colony kick in? It’s not like ants need to be taught advanced skills by their parents or something.

The choice of where to found her colony is the most important decision in an ant colony's life. A queen needs to find a place where it doesn't immediately get exterminated by other more established colonies, it needs access to water and a stable food source. Just think about the trillions of Lasius niger queens ejected from their nests all across Europe every summer and how few of them actually manage to build an adult colony that can produce it's own alates after several years of development. Most fledgling colonies get quickly wiped out by other ants, others just can't secure enough food to make it through winter (or lesser forms of hostile weather).

The question is not whether an ant colony has the skills to theoretically make it in the wild, the question is can it find a proper living space. The chance of that happening when they just get dumped into a city park is really low, unless they are so big and overpowering that they're immediately the biggest fish in the water and can just wipe out an established colony to take over their existing nest and their territory.

 

We have close colleagues here at our department working on native pollinators in Tennessee I am actually assisting in finding solitary collective nest locations in the Blue Ridge area of East Tennessee. You are absolutely spot on with Varroa.  


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#111 Offline AntaholicAnonymous - Posted April 8 2020 - 9:57 PM

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AC puts things in a way that can be misinterpreted by most people. He doesn’t mean to, but he’s kind of telling them that all these ravenous invasives are SO COOL. He barely mentions ants native to where most of his viewers live, only Philippine natives and invasives.


To be honest if I'd live somewhere we're trapjaws, weaver ants, solenopsis, diacamma and whatnot are native I wouldn't talk too much about lasius or componotus either.

he's making entertainment and exotic species are the most interesting he advocates keeping native ants and is very against importing foreign species in his videos.
The ants native to tropical countries are cool and native to him so what's the issue? I don't think the criticism is valid.
If you watch his content his opinion should be clear what do you think he should do make a 10 minute disclaimer in front of every video repeating his ethical views?

he's not keeping foreign species and is outspoken against it in many videos if that's misunderstood its the viewers fault if you ask me
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#112 Offline Temperateants - Posted April 9 2020 - 3:55 AM

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His 3 "og"s are all invasive.


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#113 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted April 9 2020 - 7:29 AM

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His 3 "og"s are all invasive.


That's cuz he can't seem to keep natives alive for more than a few months. So he resorts to the easy to keep invasive species.
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#114 Offline AntsDakota - Posted April 9 2020 - 7:32 AM

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His 3 "og"s are all invasive.


That's cuz he can't seem to keep natives alive for more than a few months. So he resorts to the easy to keep invasive species.

 

Which could unintentionally send the message, "invasives are so much more cool (and ravenous, hint, hint) than natives. Even he doesn't mean to, but a lot of people probably take it that way.


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#115 Offline Serafine - Posted April 9 2020 - 7:41 AM

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Most of his ants are exotic invasives because they tick certain boxes:

- Very durable and easy to care for

- Aggressive and entertaining

- Instant gratification due to fast growth

 

All the "less interesting" ants rarely get reported on, only get one or two spotlight epsiodes or get released/killed/forgotten at some point (those include: Camponotus, Dracula ants, Tetramorium bicarinatum, the termites (which probably got eaten by the Tetras), and likely a few others I forgot about).


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#116 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted April 9 2020 - 7:44 AM

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Most of his ants are exotic invasives because they tick certain boxes:
- Very durable and easy to care for
- Aggressive and entertaining
- Instant gratification due to fast growth
 
All the "less interesting" ants rarely get reported on, only get one or two spotlight epsiodes or get released/killed/forgotten at some point (those include: Camponotus, Dracula ants, Tetramorium bicarinatum, the termites (which probably got eaten by the Tetras), and likely a few others I forgot about).


I still have my Dracula Ants. :D
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#117 Offline AntsDakota - Posted April 9 2020 - 8:51 AM

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His Halloween musical about them wasn't even that frightening.  :lol:  :facepalm:


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#118 Offline Serafine - Posted April 9 2020 - 9:02 AM

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It was horriffic in itself though so it kinda did fit the event :D


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#119 Offline Barristan - Posted April 9 2020 - 9:07 AM

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I enjoyed his yellow crazy ants videos, I might get one colony if the corona virus chaos is over ;)



#120 Offline ponerinecat - Posted April 9 2020 - 9:46 AM

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When you obtain Stigmatomma and end up killing them. And blame it on gamergates. Even though you could've provided them with males.


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