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AC did it again


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#81 Offline Serafine - Posted April 6 2020 - 8:36 AM

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Yeah, you make a good point, he could just capture bugs that don't eat garbage and are more clean. Unfortunately, roaches might carry mites, or pesticides. I read somewhere that termites are VERY sensitive to any pesticides, so any that are alive are fairly clean. I also breed mealworms, it's fairly easy. My tetras like baby mealworms.

I seriously doubt he can catch enough wild bugs to feed all of his colonies but then he could have fed them with boiled eggs, wet cat food, minced meat, ham, shrimps and the like (at least the weavers and the fire ants would definitely eat those things). And I'm really curious where into which void his roach farm fell.

Looks like this was just a good opportunity to get rid of some colonies.
 

Part of the beauty of AntAus it that he dives deeper into the hobby than just making drama or misleading people new to the hobby. He has a smaller but more scientific and invested audience. I think it WOULD be good for him to explore the gray area between queens and minor workers, and explore camponotous eating urea.

I generally miss a Youtube channel that goes deeper into antkeeping and ant biology than the usual general stuff even if it would just attract a rather niche audience. Maybe it's a niche that gets filled at some point, who knows...
 

That would explain why these invicta mounds out here last so darn long...

There might be polygynous invicta in your area. They're slowly driving out the monogynous colonies in areas their species has already taken over.

 


I also feel Mikey Bustos deserves some respect. he's good for the hobby and through him (my 'gateway drug') I found here - a great place to share info. To me that's a positive thing so thanks mikey.

He is both good and bad for the antkeeping community. On the one hand he brings a lot of (often young) people into the hobby or just generally raises their awareness and interest about insects and the "lesser" lifeforms around us - in a atime where most people don't care about wildlife at all (especially not about arthropods) and many young city kids don't even know what a cow looks like that's definitely a good thing.

On the other hand he often is a terrible role model doing things that can hurt the community or might even nuke the hobby alltogether - all it takes it one really nasty incident getting tracked back to some inexperienced young antkeeper dumping an invasive species into the wild and that's it. Imagine some kid releasing their smuggled Oecephylla weaver ants in Florida (and yes, most ants will inbreed during their flights if forced to, particularly those mating with multiple males anyway). He also tends to overdramatize events and thus propagates a distorted image of antkeeping ("Ant fairytales with uncle Mikey"), resulting in a large turnover rate among young antkeepers when many of them find out that actually keeping ants isn't as thrilling and spectacular as they had thought it'd be.

And he likes to claim the moral high ground while doing things like enabling trade of potential invasives on GAN (there's still people selling un-IDed Solenopsis in US and Mexico), releasing colonies into the wild (even when they are known to have parasites) and keeping exotic pets himself (bearded dragon, exotic spiders, fish from the other side of the world). Not exactly a white knight by any standards.


Edited by Serafine, April 6 2020 - 8:41 AM.

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#82 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted April 6 2020 - 8:49 AM

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Oh yeah I forgot the invicta here could be polygynous... I don't really see invicta here too often, as the Solenopsis invicta x richteri hybrid as driven them out for the most part.

And how does your quote say my name, even though I never said that? I think that was Ants_Dakota.
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#83 Offline AntsDakota - Posted April 6 2020 - 8:55 AM

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And how does your quote say my name, even though I never said that? I think that was Ants_Dakota.

Temparateants said that.


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#84 Offline Serafine - Posted April 6 2020 - 9:17 AM

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Oh yeah I forgot the invicta here could be polygynous... I don't really see invicta here too often, as the Solenopsis invicta x richteri hybrid as driven them out for the most part.

And how does your quote say my name, even though I never said that? I think that was Ants_Dakota.

The Formiculture software tends to screw up quotes if there are too many in one post and sometimes the user trying to fix it doesn't turn out as intended...


Edited by Serafine, April 6 2020 - 9:18 AM.

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#85 Offline Ants_Dakota - Posted April 6 2020 - 9:37 AM

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I don't know what you are talking about, so i don't think i said it! :lol:


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#86 Offline ForestDragon - Posted April 6 2020 - 9:49 AM

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oh okay this is an ethics conversation... but I'm not opposed to what he did, first the weavers were a wild caught mature colony to my understanding and were in his care for less than a year. the exposure to disease gives immunity belief is utter nonsense, from a microbiological point of view any diseases they were exposed to while in captivity, including parasites, bacteria, and viruses, have an extremely low chance of spreading from colony to colony in the wild, and since the feeders used have more than likely been introduced into the Philippines whatever they were carrying are already there more than likely and the ants have immunities already developed, I am not against releasing captive colonies as long as they are not invasive, now if those ants were imports than its 50/50 because then they can transmit disease, if they were locally caught than there is little to no biological harm


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#87 Offline kounelus - Posted April 6 2020 - 8:51 PM

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Why release a captive colony for it to die a slow or violent death outside? As others have said, the chance of your released colony surviving after being released is rather slim. Take responsibility for your creature and put it down yourself.

 

EDIT: Or a better option would be find a local antkeeper that wants to take ownership for it.


Edited by kounelus, April 6 2020 - 8:52 PM.

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#88 Offline PurdueEntomology - Posted April 7 2020 - 12:38 AM

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I would like some research that has demonstrated that releasing an endemic species of Formicid that was housed  into a natural location* (non urban) in fact demonstratively has low or lowered survivability.  Ants are not domesticated dogs and cats. We are not dealing with Bombyx mori either here. With all do respect to opinions and assumptions, I have learned that having those may not reflect the reality of the affair.  If you have access to published research and nothing anecdotal please post links for review.  Also while I am on this thought trajectory, I would say be cautious about drawing conclusions based on the data you are given. Also, I am aware that many members are young and new in this, or actually have reaches the  "Advanced Member" but  still academically naive, to put it politely.  That being the case, nevertheless as a forum that is directed to promote responsible and fact driven information in the care, maintenance, collection, trade and transport and even business associated with formiculture, minimally fact driven is as I am daily aware, peer reviewed research driven.  This in itself is probably out of the spectrum of many formiculturalists but never the less it must be a foundation in the "hobby" whether one is a novice or "Advanced Member".  And finally, if you are wanting to pursue a career in Entomology and Myrmecology you will need to think this way and if you do not already you WILL eventually.  Cheers!

 

 

*I note natural because much research has demonstrated how anthropogenic disturbances  do alter biodiversity and sympatric species dynamics. See Sanford MP, Manley PN, Murphy DD (2009) Effects of urban development on ant communities: Implications for ecosystem services and management. Conservation Biology 23: 131–141 and Cremer S, Ugelvig LV, Drijfhout FP, Schlick-Steiner BC, Steiner FM, et al. (2008) The evolution of invasiveness in garden ants. And of course my research species: Menke SB, Booth W, Dunn RR, Schal C, Vargo EL, et al. (2010) Is It Easy to Be Urban? Convergent Success in Urban Habitats among Lineages of a Widespread Native Ant. PLOS ONE 5(2): e9194.


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#89 Offline ANTdrew - Posted April 7 2020 - 2:55 AM

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Thank you, PurdueEntomology! I was wondering the exact thing about the claim that released colonies die quickly. I’d like to see research on this, but I feel it is very different than releasing a captive bred tiger that didn’t properly learn how to hunt, for instance. Wouldn’t the collective instincts of the colony kick in? It’s not like ants need to be taught advanced skills by their parents or something.
The whole issue of releasing invasives seems to be the fact that they DO survive to the great detriment of the ecosystem.
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#90 Offline PurdueEntomology - Posted April 7 2020 - 3:30 AM

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The non release of exotics (the preferred term over invasive) is to me  without question.  The following for example: 

 

 

red imported fire ant Solenopsis invicta  Formicidae Hymenoptera black imported fire ant Solenopsis richteri  Formicidae Hymenoptera Argentine ant Linepithema humile  Formicidae Hymenoptera pharaoh ant Monomorium pharaonis  Formicidae Hymenoptera crazy ant Paratrechina longicornis  Formicidae Hymenoptera little fire ant Wasmannia auropunctata  Formicidae Hymenoptera leaf-cutter ant Atta sexdens  Formicidae Hymenoptera ghost ant Tapinoma melanocephalum  Formicidae Hymenoptera white-footed ant Technomyrmex albipes  Formicidae Hymenoptera tawny crazy ant Nylanderia fulva  Formicidae Hymenoptera

 

source: https://www.invasive...ies/insects.cfm

 

Many are questionable such as  Apis mellifera.   This article raises the question of managed bees Mallinger RE, Gaines-Day HR, Gratton C (2017) Do managed bees have negative effects on wild bees?: A systematic review of the literature. PLoS ONE 12(12): e0189268. https://doi.org/10.1....pone.0189268.   The introduction in the eastern US of non-endemic beetles of the genus Laricobius to control Wooly Adelgid (an exotic), see:  https://entomologyto...woolly-adelgid/.   The upshot, releasing an exotic may have beneficial effects and thus we need to be mindful of a universal rejection of exotics.  All exotics may NOT be harmful overall and some types of harm inflicted on endemic species may be harms we tolerate such as in the case of the ubiquitous honey bee.  


Edited by PurdueEntomology, April 7 2020 - 3:34 AM.

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#91 Offline Barristan - Posted April 7 2020 - 4:11 AM

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I released a small Camponotus vagus colony around 70 workers in 2011 into my garden. I prepared the location, I chose a sunny location and placed several rotten tree stumps there, so they could build their nest in one of them. Almost 9 years later the colony is still alive and I observed several nuptial flights over the years.
 
But I also tried it with other species and they all died. So the colony has to be large enough to survive the competition from other ant colonies.

Edited by Barristan, April 7 2020 - 4:12 AM.

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#92 Offline Da_NewAntOnTheBlock - Posted April 7 2020 - 4:15 AM

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So it's not out of the question


There is a important time for everything, important place for everyone, an important person for everybody, and an important ant for each and every ant keeper and myrmecologist alike


#93 Offline PurdueEntomology - Posted April 7 2020 - 4:48 AM

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I released a small Camponotus vagus colony around 70 workers in 2011 into my garden. I prepared the location, I chose a sunny location and placed several rotten tree stumps there, so they could build their nest in one of them. Almost 9 years later the colony is still alive and I observed several nuptial flights over the years.
 
But I also tried it with other species and they all died. So the colony has to be large enough to survive the competition from other ant colonies.

I would note that colony size may be A  factor but it may not be THE  factor and in fact a set of factors may be what gives a colony a chance to survive.  C. vagus in research has been described as medium level aggressive and one that defends its food sources (Vepsalainen, K.  and Pisarski, B. 1982.  Assembly of island ant communities. Annales Zoologici Fennici 19: 327-335. and  Savlainen, R. and Vepsalainen, K. 1988.  A competition hierarchy among boreal ants: impact on resource partitioning and community structure. Oikos 51: 135-155).

 

So it may have been your colony was just "suited" for survival in space you placed it which by the way from your description would be its preferred location (Czechowski, W.   2005.  Nest competition between Camponotus vagus (Scopoli, 1763) and Camponotus herculeanus (Linnaeus, 1758) (Hymenoptera: Formicidae) in the Bialowieza Forest (Poland). Myrmecologische Nachrichten 7: 43-45)

I would add some species have facultative phenotypes, such as in Tapinoma sessile that when given new conditions (urbanized environments)  they express these phenotypes when in natural settings they are rarely or not expressed , such as polygyny over monogyny or polydomy over monodomy or submissiveness over overt aggressiveness.  Again, it is about drawing conclusions from a few observations.  This happens much in the biological sciences, well in just about any human endeavor.  I am only mentioning this because I would like to keep us mindful of that.  I very much appreciate all the work fellow formiculturalists of all levels  with their contributions and sharing.  


Edited by PurdueEntomology, April 7 2020 - 5:42 AM.

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#94 Offline ForestDragon - Posted April 7 2020 - 5:14 AM

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i like this purdue entemology guy, he laying strait facts


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#95 Offline Temperateants - Posted April 7 2020 - 5:18 AM

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That is amazing, thanks Purdue. 


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#96 Offline AntsDakota - Posted April 7 2020 - 5:21 AM

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When I tried telling people this, I got chastised by people who actually made as much sense as you do. If you guys put up this much of a fight then, we may not be having this conversation now.

"God made..... all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. (including ants) And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 NIV version


#97 Offline Temperateants - Posted April 7 2020 - 5:26 AM

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Who were you chastised by?


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#98 Offline AntsDakota - Posted April 7 2020 - 5:27 AM

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I mean, I was solely arguing with Mdrogun, and (I think) gcsnelling (I think)! How am I supposed to argue with these people?!

"God made..... all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. (including ants) And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 NIV version


#99 Offline AntsDakota - Posted April 7 2020 - 5:29 AM

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Who were you chastised by?

Apparently, releasing captive colonies is VERY unethical and proving we DON’T CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT because releasing colonies

1. could potentially introduce disease
2. Captivity somehow affects colonies in ways that WE STILL ARE UNSURE OF

I’m sure if they were here they would be fuming reading this right now.

Not that I agreed with them, it made me angry, but there was nothing I could do about it.

Edited by AntsDakota, April 7 2020 - 5:30 AM.

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#100 Offline PurdueEntomology - Posted April 7 2020 - 5:40 AM

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Who were you chastised by?

Apparently, releasing captive colonies is VERY unethical and proving we DON’T CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT because releasing colonies

1. could potentially introduce disease
2. Captivity somehow affects colonies in ways that WE STILL ARE UNSURE OF

I’m sure if they were here they would be fuming reading this right now.

Not that I agreed with them, it made me angry, but there was nothing I could do about it.

 

In this forum we are all here to share and learn, I know I am .  WE  all contribute our part.  Please let no one here be upset or offended. AntDakota, you do NOT have to argue at all.  I have noted your posts and enthusiasm for what you have contributed  here, so keep it up.  Believe me I have to have sit down with my professors and committee members and it can be so frustrating.  Even to agree on a paragraph wording in a co-authored paper can be excruciating but it is the process.  I hope we may all have that process here. When I was young I wished such things as a  forum as this one existed, but it did not, so I am appreciative and grateful for it.  Through collaboration and listening so much may be had by all.  


Edited by PurdueEntomology, April 7 2020 - 7:58 AM.

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