105 replies to this topic

[AntsTexas]

lol, just gonna put the up, we have fire ants in the house in the summer and we have cat, now when one cat hacks a hair ball on the floor at night the next day there is like 100 to 200 ants all over that stuff....  lol gonna try and keep some of it 4 my fire ant colony.... (when i get it going)

[LAnt]

This will be interesting.

[drtrmiller]

 

I was waiting for this post.

 

Let me ask you something Terry. Knowing everything you know about Chromerust's ant food (which is merely chicken, hummingbird nectar, and honey), on a 1-10 scale, what would you rate it overall across-the-board in all categories?

 

 

Are those my categories?

 

Chicken: 10

Sugar: 10

Honey: 10

 

They're definitely all in there.  

 

The only times you see fructose and sucrose being used together in literature is in pest control receptivity tests.  Both being sugars and having an identical effect on ant health, there may be little cause to favor one over another.  From what I've read, however, wild ants respond much more to sucrose bait traps than to fructose ones, in general.

 

Studying the effects different combinations of carbohydrates play in receptivity among ants, especially the inclusion of some carbohydrates rarely found in nature, such as those that may be found in aphid "honeydew," will be an important part of building on the research of Dussutour and Simpson, thereby moving from a synthetic diet that is merely healthful, to one that may prove novel and desirable for a duration greater than the standard 8 weeks during which laboratory tests are undergone.

 

The chicken accomplishes both roles as protein and fat.  However, it is difficult to quantify nutritional values, since protein/fat composition varies between different cuts and even individual birds.  This is one just one of the reasons you won't see it listed in any of the scientific journals.

 

The other, and more perilous reason, relates to basic food science: the fact that nearly all the protein is bound in the tough, tangled, insoluble muscle fibers of the chicken meat. While Solenopsis will break the agar cubes into small granules, feeding entire chunks to brood, many entire genera of ants may only lick the food with their tongue organs, ingesting only the sugar and some fats.  Colonies that do not break the food down for storage will inevitably suffer severe malnourishment after some time.  That is why it is important to take the final particle size of the proteins being used into account, to ensure they can be ingested by workers, and thus benefit the colony nutritively, even when larvae are not present.

 

I did already say that this diet may prove useful for S. invicta.  In fact, the fastest period of growth I observed was when I was feeding my S. invicta colonies canned cat food, waxworms, and an ad libitum supply of sugar water.  The other ant species the OP named have more balanced dietary requirements, however.  In consequence, this diet may fail for long-term use for the majority of ants, on account of the protein/fat content coming from a single animal source that concentrates some needed nutrients, while being deficient in others, along with other attributes, also listed above.

 

- -

 

In response to Chromerust's now-hidden reply that accuses me of "...dumping all your scientific garbage on everybody," all I can say is that my entry into this discussion was not a personal attack, but rather the encouragement of those who may come to read or be involved with this discussion, that a more methodical and controlled approach is required when it comes to the development of a synthetic diet for ants. Simply coming in and proclaiming that sweetened, blended chicken is the savior to all antkeeper's problems, and wondering why some brilliant scientist didn't tell us all sooner, just makes you sound like these fine folks.

 

Calling science "garbage" does nothing but disrespect the millions of people, past and present, who have dedicated their lives toward the pursuit of knowledge that furthers the common good, making life as you know it not only possible, but also infinitely worth living.  Blatant and open disregard and contempt for science and knowledge, in all its many forms, is exactly what is keeping the antkeeping community stuck in the 1960's—so I pity those who would continue to perpetuate that mindset.

 

lol, just gonna put the up, we have fire ants in the house in the summer and we have cat, now when one cat hacks a hair ball on the floor at night the next day there is like 100 to 200 ants all over that stuff....  lol gonna try and keep some of it 4 my fire ant colony.... (when i get it going)

 

Ants are not eating the hair, but rather the liquid stomach contents that were expelled along with it.  You will elicit the same effect by feeding your ants the same foods you feed your cat.

Edited by drtrmiller, February 11 2015 - 5:40 PM.

[Michaelofvancouver]

Wait what when did he reply saying that?

[drtrmiller]

Wait what when did he reply saying that?

 

I received an automated email notification of a reply when my post was quoted.  The reply appears to have been hastily rescinded, most likely on account of how embarrassing it was.

Edited by drtrmiller, February 11 2015 - 5:16 PM.

[Michaelofvancouver]

Oh I didn't know we can delete our posts.

 

Still, I don't understand the problem with Chromerusts formula. Sure, it may not be perfect, but I feel like it would be really useful to ant keepers because it's simple to make and provides adequate nutrition as long as you add something else from time to time.

[dspdrew]

 

Wait what when did he reply saying that?

 

I received an automated email notification of a reply when my post was quoted.  The reply appears to have been hastily rescinded, most likely on account of how embarrassing it was.

 

 

Actually, I suggested it because I would rather moderators not get in all-out heated battles publicly on the forum.

 

I think the basic issue here, is you go waaaaaay overboard Terry. Believe me, I know the importance of the science, but to go to the extent of what you think should be done to make the absolute best possible ant food on the planet (which is probably never going to happen), over what people are successfully using is a bit... I don't know, insane? I think you need to find a little balance in life.

 

If your issue is with either of the three main ingredients (since this is not some complex concoction that he came up with, but rather a way of merely preparing three of the most popular, trusted and proven foods for ants), then why haven't you already made a thread debunking them individually in the first place?

[Mercutia]

I think the point of the OP was too give an alternative food source to people. Some people are merely satisfied with "I feed ants, they eat it, they make babies, I'm happy  " which I honestly do believe is the majority of keepers perspectives towards the subject.

 

It's a rather simple yet effective alternative considering the majority of ingredients he has, I already have in my cupboards and I can attest to feeding all of my ants chicken and them being very satisfied with eating it. I do not think OP was looking to make the ultimate ant food, just ant food. Lol. Of course, we all are of the understanding that ants need to be fed a variety and no set "ant diet" is complete or as appealing to ants than a variety of different things. OP's ant food would be a good addition to any rotational ant diet granted other food sources are rotated in as well.

[makerunayo]

I'm  VERY new to the hobby and after reading the postings, is it that difficult to provide a "perfect" food for an ant?  I agree we all want to understand, refine,and study the hobby, provide the best for our ants, but all this analysis and studies can be overwhelming.  What is a perfect food formula for an ant?  The only way to know is ask an ant.  As a hobbies, it's important to have an option to make my own formula, or purchase a premixed formula.  Appreciate Drtrmiller's detail analysis of member's formula, and researched formula that he sells. The pride is there, the time spent developing is there.   I just felt discouraged on how the posts were getting a little emotional.  

[ToeNhi]

Hey Chromerust, thanks for posting the video and ingredients that make up the paste you fed your ants. I will try it out with my colonies. Just one question though. Have you tried a piece of boiled chicken instead of the canned chicken? I've fed my colonies just boiled chicken with really good results. Never thought of blending it into a paste with honey and hummingbird nectar.

If you ever feed you S. invicta like insects, please video record it and share with us.

[drtrmiller]

I just felt discouraged on how the posts were getting a little emotional.  

 

It's happened before, and it will happen again, so long as hobbyists and scientists are brought together to a place where they may commingle.

 

...Many scientists try to show why this...isn't good...and what problems can come into exsistence [sic] for...scientific research and, in certain places like some European forums, they are under attack because they try to show what these problems are! ... And yes...they want indeed to silence the scientist and if we take the fun out of antkeeping, let it then be that way. But we, the scientists, are already long here and know what we are talking about.

 

It's no wonder why so few scientists come here, when they are relentlessly personally attacked for trying to educate a public, frozen in the ice of their own indifference, as to the truth of things.  Only in ant forums does science become "garbage," and do factual critiques devolve into distracting personal attacks—from the forum owner and other moderators—no less:

 

I think the basic issue here, is you go waaaaaay overboard Terry...To go to the extent of what you think should be done to make the absolute best possible ant food on the planet (which is probably never going to happen), over what people are successfully using is a bit... I don't know, insane? I think you need to find a little balance in life.

Edited by drtrmiller, February 12 2015 - 1:03 AM.

[Mercutia]

DoctorAnt has perused many forums without any backlash from the community or attack. And I've certainly been educated by him more than once and he's been a great mentor and encourager for my own further education. I don't think I can ever recall an instance when he was ever attacked personally or otherwise for educating.

 

As I've seen many times, and will see many more times it's not about what you say, it's about how you say it. If you can't see how your post would rub people the wrong way I'm not sure there is much point in explaining it to you. The same way Teleutotje may not see why people react the way they react towards him and what he has to say.

 

And considering this is more a hobbiest forum than a forum for scientific and academic debate, I'd say that would be more the reason so few scientists come here.

[dspdrew]

It's no wonder why so few scientists come here, when they are relentlessly personally attacked for trying to educate a public, frozen in the ice of their own indifference, as to the truth of things.  Only in ant forums does science become "garbage," and do factual critiques devolve into distracting personal attacks—from the forum owner and other moderators—no less:

 

First of all, what happened with Teleutotje happened on a German forum not here.

 

Secondly, for the record, since your post might be a little unclear to some, never once did I say anything about science being "garbage", and I never would.

 

Lastly, I'll say it again: You go way overboard. What you say is "educating a public"--while a lot of your posts might be--is often accompanied by exaggerated, condescending remarks that aren't helping anyone.

 

Nevertheless, at present, the direction of this thread makes a mockery of the hard science that goes into ant nutrition.

[drtrmiller]

Chromerust used the words "scientific garbage."  I never implied that you did.

 

Admittedly, I did use an incorrect word in my 800+ word reply.  Oops.  

 

Here you go:

 

"Nevertheless, at present, the direction of this thread makes a mockery of drastically oversimplifies the hard science that goes into ant nutrition the development of synthetic ant diets."

 

Any more helpful tone tips?

Edited by drtrmiller, February 12 2015 - 8:00 AM.

[dspdrew]

Sure. You could have done without the "Any more helpful tone tips?".

[drtrmiller]

http://www.tonecheck.com/

 

I'd use that, but I couldn't get the site to work.

Edited by drtrmiller, February 12 2015 - 7:18 AM.

[AntsTexas]

can someone tell me how 2 delete my post about ants eating cat barf? ty

[Chromerust]

Hey Chromerust, thanks for posting the video and ingredients that make up the paste you fed your ants. I will try it out with my colonies. Just one question though. Have you tried a piece of boiled chicken instead of the canned chicken? I've fed my colonies just boiled chicken with really good results. Never thought of blending it into a paste with honey and hummingbird nectar.
If you ever feed you S. invicta like insects, please video record it and share with us.

You're welcome, I'm sure your ants will like it. You could use your own boiled chicken if you prefer ToeNhi. I'm not much of a cook and a $3 can of pre-cooked chicken makes the most sense. I have a video of my fire ants taking down a mealworm somewhere, I'll post it here for you ok :-)

[dspdrew]

Nevertheless, at present, the direction of this thread makes a mockery of drastically oversimplifies the hard science that goes into ant nutrition.

 

Just wondering, would simply feeding your ants insects from the wild and calling it "ant food" also make one guilty of such a sin?

[drtrmiller]

For clarity:

 

"Nevertheless, at present, the direction of this thread makes a mockery of drastically oversimplifies the hard science that goes into ant nutrition the development of synthetic ant diets."