56 replies to this topic

[Runner12]

I recently caught a small 100-150 worker colony P. badius colony.  I've tried several times in the past to keep this species and I've never had success.  I've had several colonies last a year or two, but for as long as I've kept them, I've always run into the same problem, which is slow but steady worker die offs.  Every day I will find one or two dead workers in the formicarium, which for a one off thing isn't that many, but when it happens every day, it eventually adds up over time.  It's already starting in with this colony, even though I haven't had them that long.  I always find one or two dead workers at the end of the day in the trash pile.

 

I've never been able to figure out what causes this.  If it were a disease or deficiency of some sort I would expect the entire colony to show signs, but it never does.  Has anyone that's kept this species or other Pogonomyrmex and had this happen? 

Edited by Runner12, October 6 2015 - 1:58 PM.

[Tpro4]

your formicarium might have something that is poisonous to ants or you stressed them out big time

[dspdrew]

I have this happen a lot. I have a few colonies of Pogonomyrmex with hundreds of workers, and from time to time I see them die off at a higher rate than usual. I really don't know what would cause it other than maybe their age.

[Runner12]

Hmm ok.  I've tried everything I know from changing diet to different types of enclosures to boiling water and even buying distilled water, nothing seems to stop it.  If it were a toxin or disease I would expect it to affect the entire colony at once, I can't figure this one out. 

[Works4TheGood]

Is your queen still laying eggs and are her eggs making it to adulthood? A colony with one queen and 10,000 workers can handle losing many ants on average per day not because the colony is so large, but because the average rate of new workers exceeds the average rate of deaths over time. So either something is directly killing your workers (disease, predators, parasites, poison, desiccation, starvation, extreme temps, injuries, etc.), or you have a worker-lifecycle problem.

What does your setup look like? Pics? Did all of the failed colonies use the exact same nest?

Incidentally, I've heard that new queens caught as alates/dealates handle captivity better than ones taken from an established colony. A queen adapts best to dramatic life-changes when she has nothing yet to lose and while the world is still brand new to her. That said, being taken and held captive is probably a pretty stressful life-change to the once comfortable queen, and I'd expect that many queens don't handle it very well.

[Runner12]

This colony is too new for me to say about most of it.  These are mostly past experiences I've had with this species that I'm hoping to avoid running into again, but from what dspdrew said it seems like this may be a problem with pogonomyrmex in general.  I never see my camponotus workers dying off like this, they keep going forever it seems like.

 

They're not in a permanent enclosure yet, I'm building something for them right now, but for the time being they're in a well watered and warmed dirt box.  Dessication is a possibility as I never see the workers drinking even though I mist them daily and have provided water tubes for them.  Not sure what more I can do in that regard

 

When I dug up this colony it looked very small, the entrance was a tiny hole hidden underneath a plant that just had a few nanitic-like workers coming and going from it every so often.  I figured it was a new queen and her first workers, so I went ahead and dug it up, but it ended up being a lot larger than I expected.  I don't usually go after whole colonies, I try to find queens or small nests

Edited by Runner12, September 19 2015 - 7:46 PM.

[Runner12]

Unrelated but didn't want to start a completely new topic, but has anyone that's kept pogonomyrmex figured out how to get them to dig against the glass?  I always seem to have this issue with them.  In the past I had only one colony do it without any prompting.

 

I've tried both a vertical and a horizontal setup with this colony and they've managed to obscure the tunnels both times, even with only about an inch between two plates of acrylic to work with.

 

I tried adding a heat pad thinking they'd be drawn towards it, but they couldn't seem to care less about it.  This species in particular never seems to do well in a setup without substrate so that's not an option at the moment

[gcsnelling]

Cover the side you want to see them digging on and remove when you want  observe them.

[Runner12]

I actually tried that to no avail

Edited by Runner12, September 28 2015 - 3:00 PM.

[Crystals]

I prefer pre-molded nests over dirt nests, but I can see the appeal of watching them dig.  I have made a couple just to try it out.

 

When I built mine, there was not much room between the glass, just enough for the queen to stand sideways.  I also laid my nests flat (horizontal), so I could view them from above and there was less risk of tunnel collapses.  Worked pretty well while I had them.

I built a tutorial for it in the Handy Links thread pinned in the General section.

[dspdrew]

You need to make the tunneling area as thin as you can without restricting the ants' movement. With Pogonomyrmex, they will eventually mess up the viewing area no matter what.

[Runner12]

Yeah, it's looking like even an inch is too much space for them, they can still stick sand on the acrylic even when it's horizontal, or they just dig against the bottom.  Frustrating.  I'm going to try turning it upside down so all they've dug against the bottom pane will be facing upwards, if that doesn't work I guess I'm going to have to move them again.  Just felt like anything less than an inch would be too constricting for them to move around in.

 

The digging is definitely cool, but the real reason for the sand is that this species has always faired poorly for me in non-substrate based enclosures.  If they don't have sand they seem to just be in permanent freak out mode or they just stop doing anything.  Either way there are a lot of deaths, they seem to need to satisfy their digging instinct or something

[Runner12]

So, turning the nesting area upside down worked.  They didn't fill in their tunnels and I have an OK view of the nest.  So far this colony has faired well.  The worker deaths have stopped and there is a decent amount of developing brood.  They stay fairly active too. 

 

The only issue I'm having now is supplying drinking water to the workers.  I've tried a variety of different liquid feeders but they are obsessive about filling the drinking holes or trough of the feeder with sand, which leads to the contents leaking out all over the floor of the foraging arena.  So far I'm still using a test tube with a cotton plug.  They still stick sand all over it but the water doesn't leak out everywhere when they do it.  I know a few people here keep Pogonomyrmex, what methods do you use to give them drinking water?  So far the only methods I've found effective are misting and test tubes, neither of which I really like.

 

This is the formicarium and arena I made for them.

 

 

Phone camera sucks but you can see the size difference between the major and minor workers in the bottom left.

 

Edited by Runner12, October 6 2015 - 2:07 PM.

[Runner12]

Few pictures of this colony.  There's a ton of developing brood including a few fullsize majors and some intermediates.  Unfortunately condensation on the inside of the glass kept me from getting good shots of them, they seem to keep them in the hottest most humid part of the nest.  Queen stays in a drier cooler area near the seeds.

 

 Queen with a few minor workers

 

One of the brood chambers.  A few eggs near the top left.

 

Few more pupae and late instar larvae

 

Major worker with some chewed up seed.

 

Queen being groomed

 

Another of the queen being groomed

 

Major worker

 

Another lousy too humid brood chamber.

[Crystals]

It seems like a wick style feeder is the way to go with species that like to pile up dirt or sand.  http://www.formicult...-liquid-feeder/

 

Just ensure it is raised off of the floor to help discourage them from carrying sand.  You may need a stick reaching up to the top since they often have issues climbing plastic.

 

I do like how you did your foraging area. What material did you use for it?

 

As a side tip, if you want the pictures to show up larger you cna host them in a free 3rd part site like photobucket or flickr.  Then just copy the image code into the thread and they will be full size instead of little icons.

[Runner12]

Hmm ok, I thought the thumbnails would expand when you clicked on them?  They don't?

 

It's a temporary setup for them for the next few months but seems to be working well.  The foraging area is just a plastic box with sand and some sandstone pieces I arranged to give it some flavor and some lichen I found around where I caught them. Sand and rocks were both boiled well before putting them in. The jar is gone now, just what I was using to introduce them. 

 

They ended up tunnelling under some of the rock fragments and are keeping their seeds there since the humidity level in the nest area is high enough for some of them to germinate apparently.  A temperature/moisture gradient is very important with this species I've found.  I'll have to see what I can rig up in terms of a wick feeder.   The only time I've ever seen this species drink is when they lap water from damp sand, but they won't touch any of the liquid feeders I've tried so far.  Hopefully the wick will perform better.

Edited by Runner12, October 22 2015 - 10:44 AM.

[Crystals]

Yes the icons expand when clicked.  The ones hosted elsewhere will be large without clicking.

 

Oh, just loose sand?  Interesting, I never went that route.  Here I thought you mixed plaster and sand or something to get that neat color.

[Runner12]

Ah ok, I'll see if I can upload them somewhere when I get home.

 

Yep, just regular sand I collected near their nest.  Rinsing it repeatedly and then boiling it carefully gave it a cool sort of white/pink color.  There were a few batches I burned and turned gray actually that I didn't use.  When they go into their permanent home I'll probably mix it with some grout. 

 

I didn't rinse or boil the sand I put in the nest frame which I took directly from their original nest just because I've read a lot of papers about the importance of both micro and macroscopic houseguests in helping keep mold down.  When I've kept them in the past small colonies of isopods have always sprung up in the nest and apparently they're beneficial.  At the very least they don't seem to hurt anything.

[Runner12]

A few more of this colony.  Condensation still makes it hard to get clear shots of the interior of the nest.  A bunch of new workers eclosed today.  This is the second brood cycle that's gone from egg to adult in captivity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Baccus20]

Very nice!!!!!! Can't wait to give them a try.... May be my favorite sp!!!!