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Digging into a Formica ant mound - question


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16 replies to this topic

#1 Offline Vendayn - Posted June 7 2015 - 11:44 AM

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Anyone done this? Up in the mountains, I always see Formica ant mounds (well, not always. But quite often in the forested parts). I don't usually see queens (in fact, never found a queen, maybe they don't fly in the summer or I miss them or something). But, I go up to the mountains for storm chasing a lot with my family.

 

I always wanted to try going into the mound to find 1-3 queens...but, to be honest. I've always been quite a bit hesistant too as I don't want to be sprayed with a whole bunch of formic acid. :P One good thing is they don't sting, but still...I don't want to be bit or sprayed and they can probably bite pretty good. :P

 

So, just curious if anyone has done that to find a queen or two and had good luck doing it? Did you ever get bit or sprayed and how bad was it if you did?

 


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#2 Offline Vendayn - Posted June 7 2015 - 11:57 AM

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I mean, I don't mind being stung or whatever. I've been stung by Pogonomyrmex californicus and that hurt quite a lot, but didn't really bother me that much.

 

Just, for some reason the thought of going into a Formica ant mound creeps me out for some reason. That doesn't happen to me with any other ant I come across, so I don't know lol.



#3 Offline Ants4fun - Posted June 7 2015 - 12:26 PM

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A lot of large ant mounds have over 100 queens and reproduce by budding. Maybe one could dig up a small budding nest.

#4 Offline dermy - Posted June 7 2015 - 1:09 PM

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I have went into a Formica nest, they bite like crazy and it hurts for a bit, they are so fast that they can get to you in like a heartbeat, have fun, just because they have tons of queens doesn't mean you can find them very easily :D



#5 Offline Vendayn - Posted June 7 2015 - 1:33 PM

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I have went into a Formica nest, they bite like crazy and it hurts for a bit, they are so fast that they can get to you in like a heartbeat, have fun, just because they have tons of queens doesn't mean you can find them very easily :D

Sounds fun. :P Was their bite like a Solenopsis invicta sting or was it more like a Pogonomyrmex sting? Or somewhere in-between? Or what would you compare it too? Being stung by Pogonomyrmex wasn't the most fun thing and hurt like heck (even made by hand paralyze and start twitching for a good 30 seconds and raised my heart rate A LOT, which probably was rather dangerous actually). But, I thought Solenopsis invicta was actually a bit worse overall, sincetheir stings are lot more itchy (and last longer than the pain from Pogonomyrmex) and there is more of them.



#6 Offline dermy - Posted June 7 2015 - 1:42 PM

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I wouldn't be able to tell you that, I have never seen those ants in Canada. I would say it's about the same as Myrmica Bites. It won't kill you just don't get tons of them on you! It hurts when they get you inbetween the fingers.

 

It is definately worth it if you find the queen[s] to grab them, don't worry much about the bite, after all you've probably been biten by much worse by the sounds of it.



#7 Offline Vendayn - Posted June 7 2015 - 1:49 PM

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Thanks. :) When I go up to the mountains over the Summer, I'll keep an eye out for any mounds then. They probably aren't too bad compared to what I've been stung by.



#8 Offline dspdrew - Posted June 7 2015 - 4:44 PM

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I know where a couple Formica ravida mounds are, but I just don't see enough of them to want to rip one to pieces. I'm assuming those things have been there for a very long time.


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#9 Offline Vendayn - Posted June 7 2015 - 4:55 PM

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Yeah, I probably won't if there is just one or two mounds around. But, two years ago, I saw down in Julian (san diego mountain area), lots of mounds...so, one mound destroyed won't be too bad if the colonies are still there. I assume they will be.


Edited by Vendayn, June 7 2015 - 4:55 PM.


#10 Offline Myrmicinae - Posted June 8 2015 - 10:06 AM

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I know where a couple Formica ravida mounds are, but I just don't see enough of them to want to rip one to pieces. I'm assuming those things have been there for a very long time.

 

I agree with dspdrew.  Please do not tear open any mounds unless you know that they are quite common.  In Europe, several mound-building Formica species are actually protected by law, due to their vulnerability and ecological importance.


Edited by Myrmicinae, June 8 2015 - 10:06 AM.

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#11 Offline Vendayn - Posted June 8 2015 - 11:53 AM

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I know where a couple Formica ravida mounds are, but I just don't see enough of them to want to rip one to pieces. I'm assuming those things have been there for a very long time.

 

I agree with dspdrew.  Please do not tear open any mounds unless you know that they are quite common.  In Europe, several mound-building Formica species are actually protected by law, due to their vulnerability and ecological importance.

 

Yup. :) I in fact planned on not doing this, if for whatever reason the mounds down in Julian are a lot less (there has been a couple small fires out there, plus a really big one but that was a while ago). I don't want to damage the ecosystem if there is only one or two mounds dotted around the area. That seems wrong to do. However, if I end up in an area or go to Julian, and see a lot of mounds...shouldn't be too bad. I won't get all the queens either, probably just a few as I don't want to destroy the colony either.

 

On the other hand, maybe I'll get lucky and finally find a Formica ant queen during the trips to the mountains. :) That would be WAY better than digging into a mound and damaging the colony.


Edited by Vendayn, June 8 2015 - 11:53 AM.


#12 Offline dspdrew - Posted June 8 2015 - 12:31 PM

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On the other hand, maybe I'll get lucky and finally find a Formica ant queen during the trips to the mountains. :) That would be WAY better than digging into a mound and damaging the colony.

 

And being covered head to toe in pissed off formic acid-spraying critters.



#13 Offline Vendayn - Posted June 8 2015 - 3:24 PM

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Haha! Yeah, that definitely doesn't sound fun. :P

I'll probably just focus on finding queen(s), instead of ruining a mound (which would probably be really old) and being attacked by angry ants. Digging into a mound, doesn't sound fun or a nice thing to do even if there are a lot of mounds around.


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#14 Offline aeximius - Posted July 8 2015 - 4:33 AM

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Hi all.  One of my former colleagues studied F. paralugubris and actually ended up with a pretty nasty burn on his arm from digging in a mound (he was working in a super-colony where mounds were locally very abundant).  He likes to show off the photo in talks (a great demonstration of ant defenses), but it doesn't make me want to mess with wood ant mounds!  I suggest holding out for the mating flight (for this and the reasons mentioned above).



#15 Offline Reacker - Posted August 17 2015 - 5:49 PM

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When I was younger I tried this twice in a somewhat disorganized fashion. I would not recommend it unless you're planning to spend an entire day doing only that. It requires a commitment of the entire day and a lot of physical labor and then you still may not be successful. 

 

The first time I tried this was in mid spring when I was 13 and ended up digging 5 feet down under the mound (and it was not a large one) and was still finding ants. It was too early and they were still hibernating, and I have no idea how far down the colony went but the point is that even if you dig one up mid summer if you're not fast to very quickly dig the entirety of the upper structure the queens could easily retreat to those depths before you can catch them. And you won't know if you have them because usually there's too many ants and debris everywhere to sort it by yourself at the scene, so plan on spending time afterwards doing so. 

 

 

I tried again in my later teens and though I planned ahead and brought multiple large 5 gallon buckets to be escape proof, shoveled quickly and got the entire super structure in less than 30 seconds (and it was a much smaller colony), I still failed. A problem I had was that the colony happened to have thousands of alates whose wings fell off very easily. So as I was sorting the ants from the debris later that afternoon I had hundreds and hundreds of dealates mixed in with the workers and scattered wing fragments everywhere. This made finding the actual queen/queens impossible and though I kept the colony (in a very large dry aquarium) fed and watered no brood ever appeared. I think I likely got the queen/queens though I do not know why they did not start to lay eggs. If I'd had a better sorting method than just manually sorting from the debris in a large basin, I might have been more successful. 

 

 

I would really not recommend it unless you're extremely committed, in which case I think it's probably better to just try to get some new queens after flights and boost them with pupae that is easily available from ripping a small hole in one of the larger nests. The donor colony will recover without much damage, and you won't have caused a massive hole in the local ecology. The other thing is that, someone correct me if I'm wrong,  but I do not believe that all species of mound building Formica ants have multiple queens. You could be digging up a colony with only one queen, in which case it won't suffice to simply get a good portion of the colony and therefor probably a few queens as would be the case with a polygynous species. 

 

Some tips if you absolutely insist on it:

 

The Formic Acid is real! I've never had burns like that fellow mentioned above, but I have gotten a bit whoosey and a severe headache from observing a colony too closely. I don't have even the slightest sense of smell, so often the only time I notice there is something wrong is when physical effects make themselves apparent. I also remember reading that if you do try to capture a large colony of these ants, make sure the buckets are not sealed so the ants don't gas themselves to death. This means prepping multiple buckets (preferably 5 gallon size) with fluon or similar, or replacing the lids with wire mesh (maybe both). Make sure not to pour too much colony debris into each bucket so as not to crush the ants. It would also be good to find a colony near the road so that you can load the buckets directly rather than carrying multiple heavy buckets through the woods. 

 

There was a technique I heard of a long time ago that might be worth trying first as it's non-destructive. The technique was as such: In the morning during the dry part of the summer, take a 5 gallon bucket and fill to the bring with water. Pour bucket directly on top of the mound. Set bucket on top of the mound. The colony would then supposedly move up into the space under the bucket on the surface of the mound, easy to scoop up at this point. No idea if it's true, but you might try it. I think I might try it myself even.....



#16 Offline William. T - Posted August 18 2015 - 4:04 AM

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Definitely try to get a budding nest. Not the large ones. These mounds are old and protected, and if you break the out wall, I will imagine that birds, other ants, and other predators will get into the mound and destroy it.


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#17 Offline Crystals - Posted August 18 2015 - 11:09 AM

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I have dug Formica podzolica up before, but note, they are the most common ant in my location with hundreds of nests in an acre sized lawn.  In any given field/lawn around me, there are nests spaced about 20 feet apart, sometimes closer.

The Formica podzolica up here may have a dozen queens, but not hundreds.  Some Formica species tolerate one queen, some like Formica subsericea can have hundreds of queens.  I would never attempt to dig up a species with just one queen.

 

The ability to dig them up really depends on the time of year and if the location gets snow.  My location gets 7 months of snow, and the best time to collect a queen and workers is in spring for the first month or so after the nests become active.  I aim for 10-12am when most ants (including the queens) are in the top half of the mound.  I usually have a wheel barrow, shovel, small spade, featherweight forceps, several collection containers, olive oil, and a small dust buster vacuum.  Line the top half of the containers and wheel barrow with olive oil, as most Formica won't crawl over it.

I dig a few scoops from the side with the most sun into the wheel barrow and start the dust buster up.  Dump them frequently into containers. If I see a queen, I carefully scoop her separately into a different container with a few workers for security.  This time of year there is no brood yet.  Later in the year the queen will go deeper into the nest and there will be brood higher up in the nest.

 

I find lots of Formica queens every year, shortly after flights, on wing, or especially when turning over rocks or garden ornaments.  In my location, the queens don't dig deep because we get snow instead of dry conditions.  I find lots under any object that they can dig under.

Just this week I had one queen crawl over my toe while I was playing in the garden, and found 3 under one stepping stone.


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