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[Florida] super_oil's colony adoption


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#1 Offline super_oil - Posted June 6 2017 - 10:12 AM

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 I live in Fruit cove, FL and will only ship within the state
 Shipping is free if you are buying no more than 2 colonies. If you are buying 3 or more colonies shipping will be 7$

 If you are interested in buying please email me at 987902076@qq.com or PM me

​​--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Currently no ants for sale

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Edited by super_oil, July 14 2017 - 12:00 PM.

Just a little boy that likes ants. I try my best to be mature and competent.

 

My Colonies

Camponotus floridanus

Crematogaster pinicola

 


#2 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted June 6 2017 - 10:26 AM

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Shipping ant queens without written permission is not legal in the United States. You'll need to have somebody pick them up.


Edited by Batspiderfish, June 6 2017 - 10:29 AM.

If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#3 Offline super_oil - Posted June 6 2017 - 10:31 AM

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Shipping ant queens without written permission is not legal in the United States. You'll need to have somebody pick them up.

Really? I did not know that.


Just a little boy that likes ants. I try my best to be mature and competent.

 

My Colonies

Camponotus floridanus

Crematogaster pinicola

 


#4 Offline Mdrogun - Posted June 6 2017 - 10:45 AM

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Shipping ant queens without written permission is not legal in the United States. You'll need to have somebody pick them up.

I talked to the USDA about shipping ants in my state. They said that it should be perfectly legal, and I didn't need any permits. They also had me check with some local enforcer (this was a year or two ago don't remember the name) and he said I could ship them as long as the shipping address is within Illinois. Where are you getting the idea from that you can't ship ants in your state, without written permission?


Currently Keeping:
Trachymyrmex septentrionalis

Pheidole pilifera

Forelius sp. (Monogynous, bicolored) "Midwestern Forelius"
Crematogaster cerasi

Pheidole bicarinata

Aphaenogaster rudis

Camponotus chromaiodes

Formica sp. (microgena species)

Nylanderia cf. arenivega


#5 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted June 6 2017 - 10:47 AM

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From the Plant Protection Act:

(d) PROHIBITION OF UNAUTHORIZED MAILING OF PLANT PESTS
.—
(1) IN GENERAL
.—

Any letter, parcel, box, or other package containing any plant pest, whether sealed as letter-rate postal matter or not, is nonmailable and shall not knowingly be conveyed in the mail or delivered from any post office or by any mail carrier, unless the letter, parcel, box, or other package is mailed in compliance with such regulations as the Secretary may issue to prevent the dissemination of plant pests into the United States or interstate.

The PPA and regulations by APHIS are the two main factors which prohibit importation of ant species in the United States. All Formicidae are categorized as pests for their relationships with other plant pests, the damage they may cause to plants/facilities/equipment directly, and their ability to alter ecosystems by competition and dispersing nonnative plant species. I understand that you don't intend to ship across state lines, but unless you take the necessary legal steps, the only legal way to sell your ants is in-person.


Edited by Batspiderfish, June 6 2017 - 10:55 AM.

If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#6 Offline super_oil - Posted June 6 2017 - 10:58 AM

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From the Plant Protection Act:

(d) PROHIBITION OF UNAUTHORIZED MAILING OF PLANT PESTS
.—
(1) IN GENERAL
.—

Any letter, parcel, box, or other package containing any plant pest, whether sealed as letter-rate postal matter or not, is nonmailable and shall not knowingly be conveyed in the mail or delivered from any post office or by any mail carrier, unless the letter, parcel, box, or other package is mailed in compliance with such regulations as the Secretary may issue to prevent the dissemination of plant pests into the United States or interstate.

The PPA and regulations by APHIS are the two main factors which prohibit importation of ant species in the United States. All Formicidae are categorized as pests for their relationships with other plant pests, the damage they may cause to plants/facilities/equipment directly, and their ability to alter ecosystems by competition and dispersing nonnative plant species. I understand that you don't intend to ship across state lines, but unless you take the necessary legal steps, the only legal way to sell your ants is in-person.

Never heard that simply shipping ants within the state is illegal ever. Plus, there are many threads here that include the shipping of ants.


Just a little boy that likes ants. I try my best to be mature and competent.

 

My Colonies

Camponotus floridanus

Crematogaster pinicola

 


#7 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted June 6 2017 - 11:03 AM

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They are obviously not threads I have read yet before becoming more familiar with the laws. But, it's right there.


If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#8 Offline super_oil - Posted June 6 2017 - 11:15 AM

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Shipping ant queens without written permission is not legal in the United States. You'll need to have somebody pick them up.

Can anyone confirm this?


Just a little boy that likes ants. I try my best to be mature and competent.

 

My Colonies

Camponotus floridanus

Crematogaster pinicola

 


#9 Offline Loops117 - Posted June 6 2017 - 11:25 AM

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Shipping ant queens without written permission is not legal in the United States. You'll need to have somebody pick them up.

Can anyone confirm this?

 

 

He is correct, super oil. But to be honest, you should do what mdrogun did and ask. There's no harm in asking, and you could end up with the permission you need.



#10 Offline drtrmiller - Posted June 6 2017 - 11:28 AM

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"...unless the letter, parcel, box, or other package is mailed in compliance with such regulations as the Secretary may issue to prevent the dissemination of plant pests into the United States or interstate."


My interpretation of this part of the statue—and believe me, it is definitely subject to interpretation, based on how it is written—is that the organism must be mailed in a manner to facilitate containment. I'm also wary of the last clause, "into the United States or interstate," which specifically makes me think that organisms originating from and mailed intrastate are not subject to this article.

For safety, I would advise use of a polypropylene or polycarbonate plastic test tube with caps or plugs sealed with tape, and placed in a sturdy cardboard carton. A tiny pinhole may be drilled into the plug or cap for airflow.

On another note, it would have been ideal if this discussion had taken place over private messages. Selective readings of fuzzy legal statutes is starting to feel more and more like unintentional trolling, these days.

Edited by drtrmiller, June 6 2017 - 11:32 AM.

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byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#11 Offline super_oil - Posted June 6 2017 - 11:31 AM

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Shipping ant queens without written permission is not legal in the United States. You'll need to have somebody pick them up.

Can anyone confirm this?

 

 

He is correct, super oil. But to be honest, you should do what mdrogun did and ask. There's no harm in asking, and you could end up with the permission you need.

 

Many people ship ants in florida and I have shipped ants myself, I really don't think there is a problem.


Just a little boy that likes ants. I try my best to be mature and competent.

 

My Colonies

Camponotus floridanus

Crematogaster pinicola

 


#12 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted June 6 2017 - 11:57 AM

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Many people ship ants in florida and I have shipped ants myself, I really don't think there is a problem.

 

Seeing as how it is against forum rules to make arrangements to illegally ship or transport ants, it is not a topic for discussion. Get permission or just sell them in person. I'm sorry if you feel singled out by this, but your not seeing this discussion on shipping threads from the past is a mistake. People shipping ants in secret has proved to be way more of a problem than it should be.


Edited by Batspiderfish, June 6 2017 - 11:57 AM.

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If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#13 Offline drtrmiller - Posted June 6 2017 - 1:01 PM

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With all due respect to Batspiderfish and his strong feelings regarding this, he is not, nor is any other forum member, to the best of my knowledge, an expert at statutory interpretation.

Furthermore, federal law in this context is generally concerned with activity occurring at the U.S. border and between states, as defined in Article I, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution, which gives the Congress the power to regulate interstate and foreign commerce. Thusly, the subsection (d), which is found under Sec. 411 REGULATION OF MOVEMENT OF PLANT PESTS, exclusively describes the import, export, and interstate transport of plant pests. Because Congress' ability to regulate commerce is limited by our Constitution in scope, it would be unconstitutional for Congress to prohibit activity which occurs strictly within the confines of the state. It is for this reason that the text reads "into the United States or interstate," and not "within the United States or interstate."

In summary, while the Plant Protection Act can not and does not prohibit individuals from mailing plant pests within their own state, state or local laws or postal regulations may prohibit one from doing so in certain specific circumstances.

Edited by drtrmiller, June 6 2017 - 1:51 PM.



byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#14 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted June 6 2017 - 7:38 PM

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The restrictions on importation, exportation, and interstate movement are explicitly distinct from the restriction on any packages containing plant pests being mailed or delivered from any post office, which is enforceable by Congress under article 1, section 8, clause 7. The Plant Protection Act absolutely does prohibit unauthorized mailing of plant pests within a state.


If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#15 Offline drtrmiller - Posted June 6 2017 - 8:24 PM

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Non-mailable animals are enumerated in their entirety in the section 525 of the USPS domestic mail manual:

https://pe.usps.com/...pub52c5_007.htm

You are interpreting the statute how you want it to mean, and are ignoring the plain meaning of "into the United States or interstate," solely to mislead others and to further your personal agenda.

Edited by drtrmiller, June 6 2017 - 8:40 PM.



byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#16 Offline dspdrew - Posted June 6 2017 - 8:47 PM

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TBH, "into the United States or interstate" is pretty clear to me. The forum rules only specifically mention interstate transportation, because it is well known and quite clear that that is illegal. They also prohibit any illegal transport in general, but none of us are lawyers, and so for us to try to decide exactly what is legal or not, when it's not something obvious, is kind of pointless. So until this is made clear to us by someone of "authority", I would say this thread doesn't break forum rules.


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#17 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted June 7 2017 - 7:23 AM

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https://pe.usps.com/...pub52c5_002.htm

 

The Plant Protection Act says that all such packages are non-mailable from any post office and by any mail carrier, to prevent dissemination into the United States or interstate. It does not mention the origin or destination of the package anywhere in the writing,

 

https://www.aphis.us...ads/PPAText.pdf

 

...only that it cannot be mailed. It is distinct at every turn that exportation, importation, interstate movement, or mailing are prohibited (which, I might add, is mentioned in redundancy, because "moved in interstate commerce" includes mailing, as stated in definition), and it is within their power to enforce that as per the Constitution. I'm in far less danger of misleading others by having avoided derailing this topic with irrelevant links and musings, or by saying that just so long as we don't have consensus on what this law means, then the best legal advice is to act in the way which is most convenient. If I am abusing my impotent authority by being able to read this legal document with the sole purpose of misinforming others to further my personal agenda, then I clearly shouldn't be a moderator.

 

Do what Mrdrogun has done -- contact your federal and state departments.


Edited by Batspiderfish, June 7 2017 - 7:35 AM.

If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#18 Offline drtrmiller - Posted June 7 2017 - 8:54 AM

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The statute defines a couple terms used in the disputed section.  I have color coded them for ease of decipherment:
  
3) ENTER AND ENTRY.—The terms ‘‘enter’’ and ‘‘entry’’
mean to move into, or the act of movement into, the commerce
of the United States. 

(4) EXPORT AND EXPORTATION.—The terms ‘‘export’’ and
‘‘exportation’’ mean to move from, or the act of movement
from, the United States to any place outside the United States.
 
(5) IMPORT AND IMPORTATION.—The terms ‘‘import’’ and
‘‘importation’’ mean to move into, or the act of movement into,
the territorial limits of the United States.
 
(6) INTERSTATE.—The term ‘‘interstate’’ means—
(A) from one State into or through any other State;
or
( B) within the District of Columbia, Guam, the Virgin
Islands of the United States, or any other territory or
possession of the United States.

(7) INTERSTATE COMMERCE.—The term ‘‘interstate commerce’’
means trade, traffic, or other commerce—
(A) between a place in a State and a point in another
State, or between points within the same State but through
any place outside that State; or
( B) within the District of Columbia, Guam, the Virgin
Islands of the United States, or any other territory or
possession of the United States.

(9) MOVE AND RELATED TERMS.—The terms ‘‘move’’,
‘‘moving’’, and ‘‘movement’’ mean—

  • to carry, enter, import, mail, ship, or transport;
  • to aid, abet, cause, or induce the carrying, entering, importing, mailing, shipping, or transporting;
  • to offer to carry, enter, import, mail, ship, or transport;
  • to receive to carry, enter, import, mail, ship, or transport;
  • to release into the environment; or
  • to allow any of the activities described in a preceding subparagraph.

 

The section under subsection (d) PROHIBITION OF UNAUTHORIZED MAILING OF PLANT PESTS is titled SEC. 411. REGULATION OF MOVEMENT OF PLANT PESTS, and states the following:
 
(a) PROHIBITION OF UNAUTHORIZED MOVEMENT OF PLANT
PESTS.—Except as provided in subsection [c], no person shall import,
enter, export, or move in interstate commerce any plant pest, unless
the importation, entry, exportation, or movement is authorized
under general or specific permit and is in accordance with such
regulations as the Secretary may issue to prevent the introduction
of plant pests into the United States or the dissemination of plant
pests within the United States.
 
 

 

If your interpretation is correct, then you must be forced to acknowledge that it is similarly "illegal" to pick up, or MOVE any bug (erm, "plant pest") in any state, and carry it to another place in the same state!  ALL ANTKEEPING IS BANNED BECAUSE YOU MUST PICK THEM UP, AND THEREFORE MOVE THEM, WITHIN THE UNITED STATES!!! Further, because "MOVE" also means "to offer to carry, enter, import, mail, ship, or transport," then anyone offering to sell ants in the United States would be subject to criminal prosecution under the statute, and many topics in this forum and AntsCanada's GAN would be targeted for "aid[ing], abet[ing], cause[ing], or induce[ing] the carrying, entering, importing, mailing, shipping, or transporting" of plant pests—"within the United States!"
 
So let's review why this is not the case:

  • Dissemination is defined as "to spread or disperse widely."
  • "Into the United States" means to come from a place outside the United States, into the United States.
  • Interstate means, as defined above, "from one State into or through any other State."

As an example, does a bug picked up in California, and moved or mailed to another address in California, ever leave the United States to come back into the United States, or does it travel into or through any other state?  Of course it does not.
 
Ergo, no section in the PPA applies to the movement of plant pests from one part of a U.S. state to another part of the same U.S. state.
 

...I clearly shouldn't be a moderator.

 
The fact that you've gone on a tangent manufacturing this drama is what is at issue here, not simply the fact that you've misinterpreted this one statute.
 
In my view, the purpose of moderators is to keep the forum organized, user-friendly, and entertaining, to help resolve technical issues, and to ensure that all the rules and guidelines are followed.  To accomplish these, moderators should:

  • Request that a member alter or remove their posts as necessary
  • Remove questionable posts from view, including posts and topics considered to be spam
  • Move a post to an appropriate forum
  • Close discussion on a thread, leaving previous replies intact but disallowing further discussion
  • Issue warnings for breach of the rules and guidelines
  • Suspend or ban members who violate the rules and guidelines of Formiculture.com

In contrast to what is occurring in this thread, most forums strongly frown upon public discussion of Moderator and Administrator actions and/or decisions, and as such, disallow such discussions. Questions or concerns are customarily handled through PM or email only.
 
Moderators and Administrators should not interfere unless it is absolutely necessary, and should make every effort to enforce the rules impartially.  Moderators and Administrators should act according to the above guidelines, as a team and as individuals. As is custom, moderation actions should be discussed in the team before taking action.


Edited by drtrmiller, June 7 2017 - 8:58 AM.



byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#19 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted June 7 2017 - 3:44 PM

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Do you interpret "move in interstate commerce" as "move and interstate commerce"? Movement is never singly prohibited even once in the entire statute; movement is always accompanied by a specifier. Subsection (d) still says that such packages are un-mailable, so I don't know why you wasted so much time in such a condescending way.

This is me, washing my hands. The admin has determined that no laws are being broken, so there is no violation to rule 8 and no reason to waste my time here.


If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#20 Offline drtrmiller - Posted June 7 2017 - 3:58 PM

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Of course I do not interpret "move in interstate commerce" to mean a total prohibition on all forms of movement. It was an example of selective reading and misinterpretation to illustrate the absurdity of ignoring the qualifying clause "dissemination...into the United States or interstate" at the end of the subsection describing mailing prohibition.

The plain meaning of "into" means to originate from some place outside and move to or inside the place being described—from outside the United States to a place inside the United States, or from one state to or through another state. There is no other interpretation.


byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.




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