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Thoughts on breeding ants - is it really impossible?


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#61 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted February 21 2017 - 1:17 PM

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During speciation, branching genetic lineages can still mate and produce viable, fertile offspring so long as their genetic/physiological characteristics are not too asynchronized. Sterile offspring are one of the reproductive barriers which reinforce speciation after a certain point, but this is not a unanimous trait at all. There is a lot of misinformation being thrown around on this thread.

Regarding ant hybrids, it's important to note that ants hybridize in the wild all the time, but male ants cannot be hybrids unless they are eggs laid by workers. Because of the meticulous and discerning nature of workers, true hybrid reproductive offspring are often culled. There are, however, studied hybrid zones in North America between Solenopsis invicta and Solenopsis richteri which only contain hybrid lineages.


If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#62 Offline Works4TheGood - Posted February 21 2017 - 7:29 PM

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During speciation, branching genetic lineages can still mate and produce viable, fertile offspring so long as their genetic/physiological characteristics are not too asynchronized. Sterile offspring are one of the reproductive barriers which reinforce speciation after a certain point, but this is not a unanimous trait at all. There is a lot of misinformation being thrown around on this thread.

Regarding ant hybrids, it's important to note that ants hybridize in the wild all the time, but male ants cannot be hybrids unless they are eggs laid by workers. Because of the meticulous and discerning nature of workers, true hybrid reproductive offspring are often culled. There are, however, studied hybrid zones in North America between Solenopsis invicta and Solenopsis richteri which only contain hybrid lineages.

 

Bat, "misinformation"?  ... ... ... I'm not going to get sucked into another derailing intellectual argument.  Are you here to help us or not?  Pick up your tweezers, grab some ants, rub 'em together, get 'em to mate, and then tell us how it went already!  :P


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~Dan

#63 Offline Alabama Anter - Posted February 21 2017 - 7:36 PM

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I will definitely be trying with more invicta. I'll tell you my findings
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YJK


#64 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted February 21 2017 - 8:02 PM

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During speciation, branching genetic lineages can still mate and produce viable, fertile offspring so long as their genetic/physiological characteristics are not too asynchronized. Sterile offspring are one of the reproductive barriers which reinforce speciation after a certain point, but this is not a unanimous trait at all. There is a lot of misinformation being thrown around on this thread.

Regarding ant hybrids, it's important to note that ants hybridize in the wild all the time, but male ants cannot be hybrids unless they are eggs laid by workers. Because of the meticulous and discerning nature of workers, true hybrid reproductive offspring are often culled. There are, however, studied hybrid zones in North America between Solenopsis invicta and Solenopsis richteri which only contain hybrid lineages.

 

Bat, "misinformation"?  ... ... ... I'm not going to get sucked into another derailing intellectual argument.  Are you here to help us or not?  Pick up your tweezers, grab some ants, rub 'em together, get 'em to mate, and then tell us how it went already!  :P

 

Almost everything else that's been stated as fact about genetics in this thread has been incorrect, so setting those things straight will only help inform those wishing to participate in this genetics project. But perhaps I am being overbearing.


Edited by Batspiderfish, February 21 2017 - 10:35 PM.

If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#65 Offline Works4TheGood - Posted February 22 2017 - 5:01 AM

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During speciation, branching genetic lineages can still mate and produce viable, fertile offspring so long as their genetic/physiological characteristics are not too asynchronized. Sterile offspring are one of the reproductive barriers which reinforce speciation after a certain point, but this is not a unanimous trait at all. There is a lot of misinformation being thrown around on this thread.

Regarding ant hybrids, it's important to note that ants hybridize in the wild all the time, but male ants cannot be hybrids unless they are eggs laid by workers. Because of the meticulous and discerning nature of workers, true hybrid reproductive offspring are often culled. There are, however, studied hybrid zones in North America between Solenopsis invicta and Solenopsis richteri which only contain hybrid lineages.

 

Bat, "misinformation"?  ... ... ... I'm not going to get sucked into another derailing intellectual argument.  Are you here to help us or not?  Pick up your tweezers, grab some ants, rub 'em together, get 'em to mate, and then tell us how it went already!  :P

 

Almost everything else that's been stated as fact about genetics in this thread has been incorrect, so setting those things straight will only help inform those wishing to participate in this genetics project. But perhaps I am being overbearing.

 

 

Bat, send me a private message about anything/everything I've stated that you disagree with and we'll carry this battle on off-stage.  I stand firm that what I've said is accurate within its context, and I'm sure that you firmly disagree.  I want this thread to be focused on the task of breeding ants.


~Dan

#66 Offline Works4TheGood - Posted February 22 2017 - 5:16 AM

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Once again, for all who are new to this thread, I'd like to find some local species of ants that mate in the air and then hold them together with tweezers during a nuptial flight and see if they mate.  If anyone is willing, I'm asking for help with performing this experiment.  To anyone who has any information, please feel free to post it here.

 

As for me, I'm concerned about my own ability to pull off this experiment.  My eyesight is not the greatest and the males can be quite small.  Also, my hands shake considerably whenever I do anything important, which runs the risk of killing the two ants rather than mating them.   :(


~Dan

#67 Offline T.C. - Posted February 22 2017 - 7:04 AM

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During speciation, branching genetic lineages can still mate and produce viable, fertile offspring so long as their genetic/physiological characteristics are not too asynchronized. Sterile offspring are one of the reproductive barriers which reinforce speciation after a certain point, but this is not a unanimous trait at all. There is a lot of misinformation being thrown around on this thread.

Regarding ant hybrids, it's important to note that ants hybridize in the wild all the time, but male ants cannot be hybrids unless they are eggs laid by workers. Because of the meticulous and discerning nature of workers, true hybrid reproductive offspring are often culled. There are, however, studied hybrid zones in North America between Solenopsis invicta and Solenopsis richteri which only contain hybrid lineages.

 

Bat, "misinformation"?  ... ... ... I'm not going to get sucked into another derailing intellectual argument.  Are you here to help us or not?  Pick up your tweezers, grab some ants, rub 'em together, get 'em to mate, and then tell us how it went already!  :P

 

Almost everything else that's been stated as fact about genetics in this thread has been incorrect, so setting those things straight will only help inform those wishing to participate in this genetics project. But perhaps I am being overbearing.

 

 

Bat, send me a private message about anything/everything I've stated that you disagree with and we'll carry this battle on off-stage.  I stand firm that what I've said is accurate within its context, and I'm sure that you firmly disagree.  I want this thread to be focused on the task of breeding ants.

 

Include, me in on that private message if their is one. I love this genetics stuff.  I'm a nerd when it comes to that kind of stuff. :P


“If I am killed for simply living, let death be kinder than man.” -Althea Davis

#68 Offline T.C. - Posted February 22 2017 - 7:08 AM

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Once again, for all who are new to this thread, I'd like to find some local species of ants that mate in the air and then hold them together with tweezers during a nuptial flight and see if they mate.  If anyone is willing, I'm asking for help with performing this experiment.  To anyone who has any information, please feel free to post it here.

 

As for me, I'm concerned about my own ability to pull off this experiment.  My eyesight is not the greatest and the males can be quite small.  Also, my hands shake considerably whenever I do anything important, which runs the risk of killing the two ants rather than mating them.   :(

 

I was thinking just hold the queen down with her legs in between my fnger tips, and then hold the Drone by it's wings with the tweezers. That would be your best chance there.


“If I am killed for simply living, let death be kinder than man.” -Althea Davis

#69 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted February 22 2017 - 7:48 AM

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No need for a private messages, because my posts contained all the corrections. Understanding genetics, which is explicitly relevant to breeding, was my reward for doing the reading. I've put in enough effort as it is.


If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

----

Black lives still matter.


#70 Offline Works4TheGood - Posted February 22 2017 - 9:06 AM

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Once again, for all who are new to this thread, I'd like to find some local species of ants that mate in the air and then hold them together with tweezers during a nuptial flight and see if they mate.  If anyone is willing, I'm asking for help with performing this experiment.  To anyone who has any information, please feel free to post it here.

 

As for me, I'm concerned about my own ability to pull off this experiment.  My eyesight is not the greatest and the males can be quite small.  Also, my hands shake considerably whenever I do anything important, which runs the risk of killing the two ants rather than mating them.   :(

 

I was thinking just hold the queen down with her legs in between my fnger tips, and then hold the Drone by it's wings with the tweezers. That would be your best chance there.

 

 

T.C., you're more nimble than I for sure.  If I used your technique with my clunky, shakey hands, I'd almost certainly have one or more of the following unpleasant results:

  • Riped/mangled legs
  • Get bit
  • Get stung

I suspect that I'll need to experiment with some other techniques.  

 

I wonder .... if I just put the queen and a few males into a very small container (like a small shot glass), is there any chance that they'd mate on their own even though they normally mate in the air?  I'm guessing not since someone would have come forward by now and presented the solution.


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~Dan

#71 Offline SamKeepsAnts - Posted February 22 2017 - 9:27 AM

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Why don't you just get a polygynous colony and harvest queens? then you wouldn't need to breed them yourself. I am trying to do that with some monomorium eratogyna and cardiocondyla mauritanica colonies.

Hi Sam!  I'm actually not sure that I fully understand your suggestion.  It sounds like you may actually have a goal other than creating a breed of ants that's easily bred in captivity.  Am I misunderstanding you?  Can you please help me to understand your suggestion better?

 

I have a colony of them and take out the queens that have the traits i want and make a new colony with them repeat till you have a colony with the traits you want


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#72 Offline Martialis - Posted February 22 2017 - 9:29 AM

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Out of curiosity, what "traits" are you looking for?

 

How do you get the queen to move?


Edited by Martialis, February 22 2017 - 9:34 AM.

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#73 Offline Works4TheGood - Posted February 22 2017 - 9:45 AM

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Why don't you just get a polygynous colony and harvest queens? then you wouldn't need to breed them yourself. I am trying to do that with some monomorium eratogyna and cardiocondyla mauritanica colonies.

Hi Sam!  I'm actually not sure that I fully understand your suggestion.  It sounds like you may actually have a goal other than creating a breed of ants that's easily bred in captivity.  Am I misunderstanding you?  Can you please help me to understand your suggestion better?

 

I have a colony of them and take out the queens that have the traits i want and make a new colony with them repeat till you have a colony with the traits you want

 

 

I think that I'm still a little confused about what exactly you're doing.  Are you mating your queens in captivity, or is your proposal more of an alternative to that?  If the queens are all grouped together, and the trait you want is in the progeny, it would seem that you can't be sure which queen was responsible for the desired trait because they're all sorta together.  ... Can you please elaborate a bit more and help us understand?


~Dan

#74 Offline Superant33 - Posted February 24 2017 - 5:19 PM

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I caught a C. sayi queen. She wasn't fertile. I kept her alive for a year. The next mating flight (one year later), I caught several males. I attempted to hold her down with tweezers and force mating. It didn't work. I left the males in her container and was hoping that nature would take its course. She exterminated the males. I let her go.
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#75 Offline Works4TheGood - Posted February 24 2017 - 6:02 PM

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I caught a C. sayi queen. She wasn't fertile. I kept her alive for a year. The next mating flight (one year later), I caught several males. I attempted to hold her down with tweezers and force mating. It didn't work. I left the males in her container and was hoping that nature would take its course. She exterminated the males. I let her go.

 

That's bad news.  When a queen flies, she emits a pheromone trail that draws males near and entice each male to mate with her.  I suspect that your 1-year old queen was well past the stage of releasing those pheromones.  

 

Before a colony releases its alates, all of the alates remain virgins together underground.  In controlled conditions, I've read that males will readily mate with their sisters; they don't seem to know that they're related.  The question is, what prevents the siblings from mating together underground?  I suspect that the reason is because the queen's pheromones aren't released unless she's flying.  If this is true, it makes artificial mating much more difficult because it points to the fact that there's a very specific "nuptial flight window" when the queen releases the proper pheromones required to coerce the male to mate with her. 

 

This suggests that we need to do one of the following:

  • Expose our captive ants to natural nuptial flight conditions
  • Artificially mimic the conditions of a nuptial flight (which we don't know how to do)
  • chemically mimic the pheromones of a queen (which we don't know how to do)

Your information was very valuable and relevant.  Thank you!


~Dan

#76 Offline Superant33 - Posted February 24 2017 - 6:23 PM

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I think you are right. With ants it is much more involved than just touching gasters.

#77 Offline Canadian anter - Posted March 2 2017 - 7:43 PM

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interesting vid. I think those are Aphaenogaster


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#78 Offline CamponotusLover - Posted March 2 2017 - 7:50 PM

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I've read that it's very difficult to breed ants in captivity because they're missing the natural cues that colonies need from their environment in order to create and release alates.  So my question is this:  has anyone ever TRIED to breed ants in a controlled, semi-outdoor environment?  My thinking is that success may be obtainable if the setup were in a carport or other similarly exposed outdoor structure.  Has anyone else tried this or have any insight?

 

One of the reasons why I'm interested in breeding ants is because we could develop a strain of domesticated ants that are easier to care for and tolerate our synthetic conditions better.  Perhaps we could even create a breed that are willing to cohabitate nicely with other species.  The possibilities are pretty wild, actually.

 

Thanks in advance for all who read this post, and most especially, to those who are willing to share their insight.

That would be awesome if it happend. c;



#79 Offline Antyman - Posted March 3 2017 - 2:52 PM

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Here is a link to an article that is somewhat on point (found it when trying to find out why my queen lost her antennae. 

According to this article, there are some species that tend to get "pseudo-queens" that they think might be an evolutionary quirk, and the next step in evolution (like wingless queens). 

 

I wonder if this is common in many species of ant.

 

Hmm, it won't let me post the link.  Here is is, typed out ... :(

 

http://www.sciencedi...00334721630152X


Edited by Antyman, March 3 2017 - 2:57 PM.


#80 Offline Antyman - Posted March 3 2017 - 3:14 PM

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And, on how to mate ants, here is a snippet I found from the AntWiki .... seems pretty brutal though:

 

 

Reproductive forms can be easily reared in the laboratory, but those of most species cannot be induced to mate under the culturing conditions ordinarily employed. The reason is that the virgin queens and males must engage in extensive nuptial flights under an exacting regimen of temperature and humidity before they will copulate. However, the rule is not absolute. A few polygynous species mate in or close to the nest, so that laboratory colonies can be maintained and multiplied indefinitely. Examples include pharaoh's ant Monomorium pharaonis (see Peacocke and Baxter, 1950, and Berndt and Eichler, 1987), a species of []Solenopsis (Diplorhoptrum) from Ecuador we have had in culture for over twelve years, Xenomyrmex floridanus (Hölldobler, 1971d), several species of Cardiocondyla (Robin Stuart, personal communication), the slavemaking myrmicine Harpagoxenus sublaevis and many other parasitic ants (Buschinger, 1972b, 1976a), the Argentine ant Iridomyrmex humilis (Smith, 1936a), and Paratrechina longicornis. Within these species it is possible to make careful studies of reproductive behavior, including the bioassaying of sex pheromones. In fact Karl Gösswald and his co-workers exploited this form of mating behavior to mass-produce queens. Colonies were then started in forests, where the workers protect the trees against pest insects (see Plate 4).

 

 

 

Buschinger (1975a) has furthermore gone so far as to conduct a genetic analysis by breeding experiments in the case of the ergatogynic locus of Harpagoxenus sublaevis, but in general such studies are handicapped by the relatively long time (sometimes several years) to rear a mature colony from a newly inseminated queen. It is likely that future genetic studies will depend a great deal on electrophoretic separation of enzymes and amino acid and nucleotide sequencing.

 

 

 

The nuptial flight could conceivably be short-circuited and fertile queens produced if queens were readily inseminated. This has been achieved in the case of the fire ant Solenopsis invicta by Cupp et al. (1973). These authors kept reproductive forms in a warm (32°C), humid environment with an 18-hour photoperiod. They decapitated the male (an action that disinhibits copulatory movements), pinned it through the thorax, and set it in a parafilm mount with the abdomen pointing upward. The female was anesthetized with carbon dioxide. Her wings were grasped with jeweler's forceps and her abdomen stroked against the body in a front-to-rear motion until copulation occurred. Genetic analysis by breeding experiments could be greatly accelerated if artificial insemination were combined with precocious production of sexual forms through the treatment of young colonies with appropriate levels of disinhibitors or juvenile hormone. This technology, however, remains to be proven.

 






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