19 replies to this topic

[OhNoNotAgain]

So I was interested in another thread to read about how derpy Camponotus apparently are. I've observed that Camponotus workers can seem quite clueless about bringing back food (or maybe it's just seasonal). Plus I've discovered one of my Veromessor pergandei colonies acts far more idiotically than the other in all sorts of ways.

 

I am well aware that what we humans think of as "smart" or "dumb" is highly subjective. Ethology points out that animals are adapted for their niches and what's "smart" in one case would probably be "dumb" in a different situation. Just look at humans' tendency to pig out on ridiculously high calorie food in an industrialized first world setting... totally stupid. But in a feast/famine environment, makes sense.

 

But anyway I'm really curious what you guys think of some of the extremes in ant genus/species derpiness as well as unusual "intelligence" by however YOU define it.

 

[Added ant brain article in 2/27 comment, below] 

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, February 27 2020 - 9:18 PM.

[Ants_Dakota]

I know this may not be that dumb, but i have noticed that my myrmica  ants seem to be afraid of half dead crickets! Only maybe 4 out of my 150-200 ant colony first even get close, and after they see that it is still alive, maybe 2 of them run away.

[AntsDakota]

Strange, that’s usually the case with small colonies.

[Antennal_Scrobe]

Wait, are you both different people called Ants Dakota? 

[Da_NewAntOnTheBlock]

yes. I observed that my first Camponotus colony (and colony ever) was incredibly intelligent, so Depynotus isn't a thing (Derpynotus is a new term I just made up for derpy camponotus)... 

[AntsDakota]

Wait, are you both different people called Ants Dakota?

Yes, I had the same concerns, yet my friend here liked it and I’ve accepted it, as you will.

[OhNoNotAgain]

Yeah I just recently clued into the two different Ants Dakota ... I guess I'm in the derpy category myself 

 

I thought my first Veromessor pergandei colony was derpy but the second one is definitely much more Derpymessor perganderpy. First colony is actually doing well now, pulling in seeds, sorting them in the test tube into different piles, piling up all the outside seeds and trash into a huge pile, and not dying in their ant nectar. Second colony ... I'm a bit worried about. First colony also demonstrated a tiny bit of "medical care" behavior (see article about medical triage in termite raiding ants), but second colony shows no concern for fellow workers in trouble.

 

I thought my Camponotus fragilis were pretty interesting. At least they are curious and fast to move out of one place and into another. However, ever since the heat's been turned off they've been eating brood and the foragers REFUSE to bring home the bacon. If I put food into the nest directly they'll eat it, but the foragers won't bring home anything.

 

My C. sansabeanus seem to be occasionally sans sense. Like in terms of accepting food. Super picky.

 

Tetramorium seem actually sort of clever, if boring. They love to collect sand, even off mini-hearth surfaces, and block light with it. At least in my first colony, workers are very very quick to pick up stray brood and try to rescue them. When I've dumped some out into a new place, after some panicking they rapidly gather together in a corner with all their brood. I even watched one clever worker go on a personal mission to bring in all the brood in the outworld down to the nest - she was very dedicated and kept at it.

 

EDIT: Again, I know these are just personal judgments and ascribing "intelligence" or "derpiness" is highly subjective.

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, February 25 2020 - 3:52 PM.

[OhNoNotAgain]

yes. I observed that my first Camponotus colony (and colony ever) was incredibly intelligent, so Depynotus isn't a thing (Derpynotus is a new term I just made up for derpy camponotus)... 

 

Could you elucidate? Sounds intriguing. Which Camponotus?

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, February 25 2020 - 3:55 PM.

[Da_NewAntOnTheBlock]

Camponotus Pennsylvanicus (love those gals) 

[justanotheramy]

I have limited ant keeping experience, but I was impressed by my aphaenogaster longiceps chaos ants' water syphoning trick.

​@OhNoNotAgain, is it possible your Fraggles are being derpy because of conditions?
My chaos ants have changed their foraging behaviours dramatically since they moved into their new natural formicarium — much less fussy, more like "normal" ants. They're eating fruit, they're hunting isopods, they're… still digging like lunatics, but they have sentries and foragers and patrols. It's quite striking.

[Ants_Dakota]

Wait, are you both different people called Ants Dakota? 

Yes, there are two different AntsDakotas. one is AntsDakota, and one is Ants_Dakota(or me). I guess i didn't realize that it would be that confusing .

Edited by Ants_Dakota, February 26 2020 - 9:59 AM.

[Manitobant]

Myrmecia are very intelligent ants from what I've heard. Their eyes follow you around the room and they can even feed from your hand if they recognize that you're not a threat.

[Da_NewAntOnTheBlock]

that's crazy!

[justanotheramy]

The wild ones watch you, so I reckon a captive colony would def be keeping tabs on you 

[Ants_Dakota]

Hmmm... That is very fascinating. i guess i never knew that. So, How would you find that out?

[justanotheramy]

They're pretty common around here once you get out of the metro area?
If you sit near a nest (not too near a nest, lol) and watch them individual ants will ignore you while you're still, but if you move they freeze and start tracking your movement, it's pretty obvious.

[ANTdrew]

Of the ants I've experienced, I'd put Tetramorium up there with the smartest. Maybe the best term is "most efficient." They do all the things that one would expect to help their colony survive like promptly removing all trash, foraging for as much protein as possible, and moving quickly and efficiently when needed. I swear my mega-colony figured out how to pile up enough dirt to get past the barrier in their terrarium. I think there is a reason these ants are so dominant in the areas they've invaded.

[OhNoNotAgain]

Really interesting discussion!

By the way I found this article today. It discusses ant brains, brain size and body size, brain size at different times of life, brain size and how social the ants are... interesting stuff.

 

Structure and function of ant (Hymenoptera: Formicidae) brains: Strength in numbers

 

http://ftp.eebweb.ar...mecolNews08.pdf

 

Interestingly, the more social the less brain they may need. The opposite of warm-blooded animals, who need more brain to understand social cues.

 

And re: Tetramorium: So weird. But yes, they seem quite ... efficient, indeed, despite being so much smaller than all the other ants I keep.

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, February 27 2020 - 12:21 PM.

[Serafine]

Interestingly, the more social the less brain they may need. The opposite of warm-blooded animals, who need more brain to understand social cues.

I wouldn't exactly phrase it like that as it could be misleading.

Ant workers generally don't have to bother with stuff like flying and mating which probably already saves them a lot of brain capacity so it's more a case of hyperspecialization, but even very large social colonies need workers that are capable of navigating terrain and finding food - simply following a trail doesn't cut it if there's nobody laying that trail in the first place.

 

The interesting question that arises to me is if ant society is actually even more complex than we think it is - we do know that some species have specialized scouts looking for food which then lead the rest of the colony's workforce to the available food sources. This is particularly well documented for Pogonomyrmex species where harvesters don't even leave the nest in the morning unless they meet 3-4 returning scouts within a minute telling them that there's food outside. There might be an entire additional layer of visually invisible caste differentiation hidden in plain side.

[OhNoNotAgain]

 

Interestingly, the more social the less brain they may need. The opposite of warm-blooded animals, who need more brain to understand social cues.

I wouldn't exactly phrase it like that as it could be misleading.

Ant workers generally don't have to bother with stuff like flying and mating which probably already saves them a lot of brain capacity so it's more a case of hyperspecialization, but even very large social colonies need workers that are capable of navigating terrain and finding food - simply following a trail doesn't cut it if there's nobody laying that trail in the first place.

 

The interesting question that arises to me is if ant society is actually even more complex than we think it is - we do know that some species have specialized scouts looking for food which then lead the rest of the colony's workforce to the available food sources. This is particularly well documented for Pogonomyrmex species where harvesters don't even leave the nest in the morning unless they meet 3-4 returning scouts within a minute telling them that there's food outside. There might be an entire additional layer of visually invisible caste differentiation hidden in plain side.

 

 

I was referencing what the study said, kind of as clickbait and also as a sample of the contents. To quote: "While the authors of this inspiring study discuss various causes, the main reason for the mismatch may just be what was proposed above – that ants are social and the more socially advanced they are, the smaller their brains might be."

 

However, it's just a theory. From the sounds of it it's hardly proven. If true, though, it would be sort of an inverse of warm-blooded animals where more social organization generally equals more processing power in the brain.

 

I would agree that ant society probably has a lot of complexity we just don't know about yet.

 

EDIT: Here's a quote that seems more proven though: "Hence ants have large brains only when they need it and brain size adapts to the changing behavioral requirements during an ant's life time."

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, March 2 2020 - 10:02 AM.