36 replies to this topic

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

I agree on that^.
I do not keep a nestmate in the nest as my ants got fussy about water being too in/near their nest. Often plugging it up with dirt and/or draining the water into the nest making it too humid and wet inside.

 

I place nest mates in the outworld as a water source, just making sure they have enough tilt that the air will collect at the top.

[bootsfirst]

Thanks a ton as always both - appreciate the positive energy, useful facts, and thinking on hydration.

We had our first two homegrown eclosures ever yesterday (not counting the brood that arrived when we first purchased them), and it’s so exciting to see the callows up and walking around the nest!

I do think it’s plausible that hydration is a factor - I keep the water tower pretty full (and occasionally overfill it by accident which is when we get the condensation you see), and never let the nestmate get empty, but they do block it off and I see fewer of them drinking from it than in the past (not sure if that’s just a function of fewer total ants though lol).

I gave the nestmate tunnel another clean out for easier access, but maybe I should also consider an outworld water source? Is there anything specific that I should do for that to eg, avoid them falling in and drowning, or is something like a bottle cap with water sufficient?

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Thanks a ton as always both - appreciate the positive energy, useful facts, and thinking on hydration.

We had our first two homegrown eclosures ever yesterday (not counting the brood that arrived when we first purchased them), and it’s so exciting to see the callows up and walking around the nest!

I do think it’s plausible that hydration is a factor - I keep the water tower pretty full (and occasionally overfill it by accident which is when we get the condensation you see), and never let the nestmate get empty, but they do block it off and I see fewer of them drinking from it than in the past (not sure if that’s just a function of fewer total ants though lol).

I gave the nestmate tunnel another clean out for easier access, but maybe I should also consider an outworld water source? Is there anything specific that I should do for that to eg, avoid them falling in and drowning, or is something like a bottle cap with water sufficient?

I would remove the water source form inside their nest and keep it only in the outworld. If the nest seems overly humid an empty and uncapped nestmate can allow for some ventilation to reduce humidity. But i've otherwise kept all the unused ports in my nests plugged up.
Once the colony grew in size they started showing me that they do not like anything near their nest entrance they didn't put there themselevs. Including water sources. Once they were in the 50+ zone they always drained/plugged up any water sources placed close enough to their nest entrance.

If you have a blunt tip syringe for filling the watertower, try this out:
1: do not add water for a long time
2: use air in the syringe to check water levels, if the water level is high enough you can hear and/or see bubbles in it.
3: once the water level is probably very low, take a careful measurement of how much water you put in the syringe
4: now you can get a good idea of how much water the nest can hold, and in the future you'll know how much to put in the syringe to not overfill the nest

I use the air method just to test if i need to add water at all. If i can her bubbles, i do not add more water. Once i do not hear any bubbles, i also know how much to fill the syringe to not overflow the nest.

For water in the outworld you can use a nest mate, just be sure it has a little tilt to it so the air bubbles rise to collect by the plug.
I also use very shallow trays(the tiny feeder trays from THA). My pogonomyrmex can get trapped in the tray due to the water physics. But it's too shallow to drown in so they hangout until enough water is gone they can just walk out again. They will literally take a nap on top of the water while they wait for enough of it dry out.

Nestmate in image is just leaning against the wall of the outworld, exposing the mesh to drink from at the bottom and collecting the air at the top.


I also use THA tiny water dispensers.
I've also tried the tiny glass jars and 3D printed caps, but the little printed caps got dirty in way i could not clean over time so i haven't replaced those as they've aged.


 

[bootsfirst]

Okay, after waking up to another two deaths, including one of the fresh callows, I took action on your suggestions, and I think you guys are right on about a water problem.

 

I moved the nestmate into the outworld and will watch to see if they drink from it, but moreover I think I've been significantly underwatering the poor girls.

 

In the past I was topping up the nestmate with 3 or 4 CC of water a couple of times a week, which seemed fine, and over time I've probably gotten less diligent about that, in particular because I've seen it "overflow" from that amount a couple of times. BUT -> I think actually what may have been happening is that if I insert the tiny bent syringe tip at the wrong angle, the water is going out directly into the substrate rather than into the water tower itself and so they didn't actually have too much water, they had it in the wrong place!

 

Today I did the "bubble test," and heard nothing, then filled 1cc at a time until I actually overfilled slightly (woops) and could hear the test, which took ~10CC! Going to get more rigorous about checking by listening for that and dial in how much / how often I fill.

Edited by bootsfirst, April 27 2025 - 5:36 AM.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

I also had that build issue in my first nest, where the water input tube had a sort of "double angle" in it that allowed me to miss the tray and soak the nest material instead.

Sounds like a good catch on this one, as a callow dying is generally a sign of something unhealthy going on in the colony.
I've found it is challenging to see if the tower is low on water or not by just looking in it. Which is why i devolved the bubble method, and now just inject a bit of air to determine if i need to add more water or not. Though every tower is a little different, the lower the tube goes into the tower the better the bubble measure method works for gauging how full it is.

So glad to hear it seems like you've discovered what was going on with the colony. And i'd expect they should recover quickly now that their living conditions are back to a more optimal humidity. The nest being soaked internally also explains for me why the early images glass seemed to have way more condensation on it than i would have imagined for the setup. Going from likely too wet for them to too dry in fairly short order.

 

P.S.

When injecting air, be sure not to have pulled in any of your own breath to the syringe. They will loose their chit if mamal breath comes rushing into their nest chambers. I've done this a couple times not paying attention and they so freak out.

Edited by Full_Frontal_Yeti, April 28 2025 - 8:01 AM.

[abraham66]

They may just be deaths due to the stress of shipment. That nest does look too big for the size of that colony, but that wouldn’t kill workers quickly like you’re seeing. Give them some time to settle in and see if the deaths continue. Disturb them as little as possible.

Could you let me know why too big of a nest isn't a good idea? Is it because it is difficult to control the temperature and humidity in a large space? 

[ANTdrew]

Ants by nature like to feel cramped. Some colonies may feel stressed, or at best uncomfortable in a large space. They will also tend to use the extra space to dump trash and refuse, which can lead to issues of mold.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

As said  ^, ants generally don't like to be in too big a space, they like a cozy home feel.

Though i will say with these ants i did not observe them doing the nest fill in thing, and they seem to be ok in a tad more space then other ant species. Who will just keep all their refuse to rot in nest filling up the space to make it smaller for them.

If you flip though my journal you'll see the times when i upgraded their space and what the population density looked like. And as they do like to keep a seed larder, you can let them have more seeds to fill in the space and they'd likely use that instead of trash if they felt the space was too big for their numbers.

Also never too much outworld. The more outworld you can provide them the more you will see their natural outdoor behaviors. It's just the nest space that can get too big for their comfort.

[bootsfirst]

Things are going pretty well, but figured I’d drop another update every once in a while in case somebody is reading down the line or y’all are just curious.

Despite 1 death since my last post, the population trend is very much net positive, with 13 or 14 workers at latest count and a really robust brood pile! Have seen them making use of the nestmate in the outworld, rather than clogging it up, which is nice too.

As you guessed, they do also seem more than happy to add *more larder* and fill space up that way.

Thanks as always!

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Edited by bootsfirst, May 10 2025 - 5:50 AM.

[bootsfirst]

Hi folks!

 

Things continue to go pretty well! A couple of deaths, but the brood keeps growing and we're up to ~25 workers now!

 

 

With total collapse seeming less imminent, I'm starting to think about more 'nice to have' things -> in particular, what we can do to improve visibility. I still get quite a bit of intermittent humidity, which has led to a pretty gross and obscured view through the top glass. Is there any safe or recommended way to clean this?

 

I was thinking about setting the whole formicarium in a large plexiglass box then removing the top and getting all the escapees back in once it's clean, or perhaps buying a second top-glass and swapping them rapidly, but neither of these options seems great TBH.

 

I imagine this is a common problem, so welcome any suggestions - thanks!

 

 

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[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Glad to see they seem to be doing well.

These ants will do a full on freakout when the nest is disturbed enough. Smaller numbers maybe a bit less so but they are still likely to go all frenzy run around, which gives us really high odds of smooshing one between the glass and nest when we try to put the glass back in place.
When i was first researching ant setups i noticed a fair number of images that had an ant smooshed under the glass like that to be seen. So be super careful on these glass removal/ replacement cleanings. 

For glass swapping try this:
I've only done it a couple times so far, but it's worked well for me, if a bit dexterity challenging to pull off.
Get a 2nd glass ready(magnets not yet attached), and use it to push the old glass out of the way with the new one is sliding into its place. This leaves no gaps for ants to escape if done right. Important, if you use museum glass(anti-reflective surface) be sure the anti-reflect surface is on the top. That coating is very soft and easy to scratch, it will surely be marred if scraped across the nest plaster while doing this slide replacement maneuver. So place that on the top/outside the nest. This is the opposite orientation of how a picture frame would use anti-reflective material, placing the soft coat surface on the inside of the frame to prevent scratching. but here we want it on the outside to not be scratched by the nest body as we slide it into/out of place.

You will also need
1: small glue dots
2: 4 strong magnets like on the current glass.

Once the glass is in place you can let the magnets show you where they will go, and then glue dot them down.



I can see the top left side chamber is a trash pile. The husked seed leftovers are identical to the refuse piles here. I'd be fairly sure as they grow in size they will move the refuse to the outworld. Just keeping their place cozy for now until they can fill it out with more ants, which i doubt will be too long. 


I'd guess the condensation could be from any water that soaked into the stone instead of stayed in the water tower.

If we're sure the water is only in the tower and not evaporating directly out of the plaster. Then the main thing to do once a clean glass is in place is to be sure and put enough heat cable onto the glass directly to try and prevent any in the first place.

Right after a new glass is in place keep a close eye on it for the next several hours, and position heat cable to be directly over any condensation spot that are forming.
In a smaller nest this shouldn't take too much cable, but can still be very spot specific potentially.
And as always do what you can to keep the main heat application as far from the water tower as possible to keep evaporation rates lower.

I basically apply the cable to a side wall as far from the tower as it can be, and then drape cable to lay across the glass.

But in some nests that needed enough cable on the glass to prevent the condensation, then i just heat the nest that way and don't add more on any side walls.

[bootsfirst]

Thanks a bunch!

Methodology makes sense, so going to order another panel and take a shot once I’m back from vacation.

You’re right about the trash room - once I cleaned out their outworld trash heap they quickly emptied that room into the outworld.

I do also think the high condensation is related to me routinely ending up with water in the substrate instead of just the tower, which I still struggle to get quite right.

[KingLarryXVII]

Thank you for this thread.

 

I've been running into the exact same issues with my first Pogonomyrmex colony in a Fallen Fortress.  They came into spring strong and got up to around 40, but have stalled out and even started to shrink.  I am definitely hoping maybe I was not keeping the water tower as full as I thought with the higher temps and it was a humidity issue.

 

For the glass cleaning, I use the exact technique mentioned by Yeti.  It definitely gets them a bit worked up, but is usually pretty safe and I haven't lost any ants to it yet.  It does drop the debris into the chambers, but Pogonomyrmex are really clean and get it all out of there in no time.

 

I'm posting to ask about the nestmate within the chambers.  My ants seem to steadily use it for drinking, and don't plug it up at all.  I do keep a second in the outworld that is also used, but would the one in the nest actually be detrimental if they aren't, as speculated, draining it?

[bootsfirst]

Success! Got back from vacation and managed to slide the new glass in without decapitating any unfortunate ants. Much clearer viewing for the moment, although I'm sure condensation will keep being a challenge - I'm trying to stay on top of it with the draped cable for the moment.

 

Despite a mass die-off when we didn't have AC on the first week of vacation and a heat wave spiked NYC temps to ~100 (RIP 30 ants), the brood is thriving and best count right now is ~50+.

 

I'm clearly not the expert here, but FWIW Larry, I don't think there's any issue with the nestmate in the chambers if you aren't seeing them dam it up or getting way too much humidity & condensation. For me the issue was that they were damming it not drinking from it, coupled with too little watering, leading to a situation where, despite the condensation, there wasn't actually enough moisture for the ants.

Edited by bootsfirst, July 27 2025 - 6:20 AM.

[ANTdrew]

Sounds like you’re on well on your way to a thriving colony.

[Michiganter]

Thank you for this thread.

I've been running into the exact same issues with my first Pogonomyrmex colony in a Fallen Fortress. They came into spring strong and got up to around 40, but have stalled out and even started to shrink. I am definitely hoping maybe I was not keeping the water tower as full as I thought with the higher temps and it was a humidity issue.

For the glass cleaning, I use the exact technique mentioned by Yeti. It definitely gets them a bit worked up, but is usually pretty safe and I haven't lost any ants to it yet. It does drop the debris into the chambers, but Pogonomyrmex are really clean and get it all out of there in no time.

I'm posting to ask about the nestmate within the chambers. My ants seem to steadily use it for drinking, and don't plug it up at all. I do keep a second in the outworld that is also used, but would the one in the nest actually be detrimental if they aren't, as speculated, draining it?

I had the same problem as many others here. 40+ colony w FF, early die off (May). Colony dropped to about 10 workers. Started giving regular fruit flies and provided a liquid feeder w sunburst ant nectar, as of today, colony is back up to 30. Heating gradient stayed the same (90 degrees at the hot end, high-70s above water tower).


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[bootsfirst]

Hi folks - checking back in since you've all been my sherpas thus far!

 

What I've done - Kept roughly the same heat gradient (low 80s by tower to high 90s on opposite end), supplemented their dandelion seeds with fruit flies or a frozen cricket once a week or so, and used the 'bubble method' to make sure that the water tower isn't empty

The good - As best I can count, we're up to ~70 ants right now, with a really robust brood

The bad - Mortality rates are HIGH; I've really noticed it the last couple of weeks and started counting; I'm seeing ~2 new dead per day piled in the outworld over the past two weeks (15-20 corpses each Saturday when I clean them out). No dead callows as far as I can tell.

Observations - They seem to spend a lot of time in the outworld, which is perhaps a clue? At any given moment, there are ~20 of them outside, with at least 3-5 packed around the nestmate sipping. Makes me wonder if it's a water issue still?

 

As always, would love any advice on what might be causing this - I'm glad population still seems to be growing on net, but these mortality rates are a bit troubling. I tested dialing the heat up a bit more, but no seeming impact either way from that this week, so reversed the change.

 

Thanks!

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