Jump to content

  • Chat
  •  
  •  

Welcome to Formiculture.com!

This is a website for anyone interested in Myrmecology and all aspects of finding, keeping, and studying ants. The site and forum are free to use. Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation points to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!

Photo

Legality of ant keeping


  • Please log in to reply
40 replies to this topic

#1 Offline FinWins - Posted September 27 2022 - 7:50 PM

FinWins

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 466 posts
  • LocationUnited States

So as of late a lot of people are focusing too much on pointing out and interrogating other people about where they got non-native species. I don’t mean that there should be no questioning but maybe a little less because ant myrmecology should be about learning about ants and if someone has non native ants we may as well learn from them and their experiences especially in cases where the ant in question has little to no information known about it instead of obsessing over the fact that the ant is non native.
Just my thoughts.


  • sL0wNsteady and MinigunL5 like this

I keep: C. modoc, C. sansabeanus  :D, C. maritimus, Formica argentea, M. mexicanus  :D, Odontomachus brunneus :D, Pogonomyrmex californicus, Pogonomyrmex rugosus, 

 


#2 Offline T.C. - Posted September 27 2022 - 7:58 PM

T.C.

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,059 posts

Years ago it was acceptable to question individuals on their non native species if you knew their location. However with vendors and sellers having permits to distribute some species to their non native area's, nobody really has the place to ask anymore. Not to mention an individual can get personal permits just for keeping non native species as well. 


  • sL0wNsteady, bmb1bee, lazyant and 1 other like this
“If I am killed for simply living, let death be kinder than man.” -Althea Davis

#3 Offline ReignofRage - Posted September 27 2022 - 9:27 PM

ReignofRage

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 647 posts
  • LocationCalif.

*
POPULAR

I don't really find this to be a necessary thread and it will just cause inevitable debate and stirring of the pot. With that being said, if you are going to keep exotics illegally; do it in private or keep your location anonymous. No one is going to stop you if you do keep it private. If you don't keep it private, someone could be petty and report your activities. If you do it publicly there will always be people questioning the legality behind it.

 

It's quite known that California and some other states are very strict in permitting the keeping of exotics and getting a permit to receive non-native species is basically impossible. Do I think people should be pestered about whether they are keeping illegal species? No. But, it is apart of the rules to not post illegal doings on the forum - rule 10. Keep illegals for your personal enjoyment, not public enjoyment is what I would say to you. And since it's quite obvious that this has been from comments made by ZTY, it should be clear that he is not saying anything out of malice towards people who keep illegals or illegally trades, but just as a warning about the rules of the forum.


Edited by ReignofRage, September 27 2022 - 9:27 PM.

  • EthanNgo678, B_rad0806, CheetoLord02 and 11 others like this

#4 Offline Serafine - Posted September 27 2022 - 11:07 PM

Serafine

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,782 posts
  • LocationGermany

Let me give you this quote from an actual entomologist as a hint why exporting ants all around the globe could be an issue. He pinpointed the issues better than i ever could.
Yes, this is about releasing NATIVE ants but just read it, we'll get to the point.
 

So the reason we don't re-release ants once they've been in captivity is several-fold.

First of all, let's deal with the big thing: if you buy ants from online, they're very unlikely to be local, even if they're the same species. I can buy a Lasius niger from online, which is about as abundant as you can get in the UK, but that doesn't mean I can introduce them locally. The reason for this is that local populations of a given animal have local genetics to that region. Despite being the same species, their traits can differ quite a bit between even local regions, and that, twinned with the fact that eusociality generally results in a low number of individuals within a given area (with colonies being individuals vs actual individual ants), you can seriously disrupt the local balance of genes in a given area, especially as you've released a set of ants post-founding eliminating natural selection for a large part of their life-cycle.

But let's say you caught your Lasius niger queen from your garden, why is it important that you don't re-release? The previous argument actually still holds (you've removed them into a more febrile environment for a part of their lifecycle), but more importantly you're changing the parasitic balance of your local ecosystem.

So what the heck does that mean? Basically, the conditions that you raise your ants in will be very different from the native environment of the ants. As a result, parasites (mites, fungi, bacteria) are way more likely to propagate. It's not a problem for your ants cause they have an abundance of food, clean water etc., but it allows populations of these diseases to propagate in a way they wouldn't have the ability to in the wild. When you re-release, you can seriously disrupt your local invertebrate ecosystem by introducing your biological-weapon ants on it.

 
 
Now think about this from a global perspective. If your non-native ants ever escape (doesn't have to be the whole colony) and unknowingly have some nasty parasite from Asia hitchriding on their backs this could cause serious mayhem to the arthropod populations all around your place. Arthropod parasites like mites and nematodes often aren't too hyperspecialized and will spread across whatever host is available.
 
And that's not even touching the issue of eusocial insects (this includes ants, bees and wasps) having a destructive potential as invasive species that is pretty much unrivaled on the planet. In many cases it's enough for a single keystone species to get eliminated to bring an ecosystem into serious problems and ants are absolutely capable of doing just that.

 

 

 

 

[...] myrmecology should be about learning about ants and if someone has non native ants we may as well learn from them and their experiences especially in cases where the ant in question has little to no information known about it instead of obsessing over the fact that the ant is non native.

Myrmecology is the science of studying ants. It has absolutely nothing to do with keeping them as pets.

You wouldn't describe someone keeping a cat as a felinologist.

 

Generally I can see your point to a certain level, problem is this is the mindset that gives us stuff like sick Toucans in private care that end up either getting rescued by a sanctuary with some absolute Toucan nerd who actually has a clue on how to care for them (those people are very very rare) or they just die miserably (which is what happens to the majority of them).

 

Animals with a distinct lack of care information generally should not be kept by amateurs, unless they're absolute nerds for that particular animal.

It usually doesn't end well.

 


  • gcsnelling, B_rad0806, aznphenom and 3 others like this

We should respect all forms of consciousness. The body is just a vessel, a mere hull.

Welcome to Lazy Tube - My Camponotus Journal


#5 Offline NicholasP - Posted September 28 2022 - 5:27 AM

NicholasP

    Vendor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 763 posts
  • LocationGrand Rapids, Michigan

Also, I'd like to say this now. The ant keeping hobby is hated by a lot of people because of the fact there's non antkeepers with tons of invicta on their lawns they battle with everyday down south. A few bad apples that keep ant species illegally would bring us ALL DOWN WITH THEM. People would hate antkeepers even more than they already do. And if they discover that someone who kept illegally kept something like S. invicta out in Arizona and it escaped in Flagstaff or Sedona or something... The amount of seething hate from people to hear that invicta has spread even further than they have already because some antkeeper wasn't careful enough would be huge. Just get a permit for ants rather than go through people telling you you're wrong in doing it that way. They aren't even that hard to obtain anymore. It was back in 2019-2021 where permits were very hard to obtain because of a poor APHIS permitting system and overall, just the APHIS department of the USDA being swamped than more that their staff could deal with. The APHIS site now has a revamp and it's made things a heck of a lot easier. Just go here please and look into getting permits. (Home (usda.gov)) Here's my final closing statement.

So please... To all you that keep ant species illegally and talk about it publicly... Please consider the others you may bring down with you.


  • bmb1bee likes this

#6 Offline Ants_Dakota - Posted September 28 2022 - 6:31 AM

Ants_Dakota

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • LocationSioux Falls, South Dakota

What are everyone's thoughts about underage minors obtaining permits through their parents names? 


Edited by Ants_Dakota, September 30 2022 - 7:19 AM.

Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. -Proverbs 6: 6-8

My South Dakotan Shop Here

Attention Ant-Keepers in South Dakota! Join the SoDak(Society Of Dakotan Ant Keepers)


#7 Offline ColdBloodedCritters - Posted September 28 2022 - 7:06 AM

ColdBloodedCritters

    Vendor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 92 posts
  • LocationGrand Rapids, Michigan

What are everyone's thoughts about underage minors obtaining permits through their parents names? (FYI i do not support or encourage this, but i know some people do it)

Deleted


Edited by ColdBloodedCritters, September 28 2022 - 7:06 AM.


#8 Offline NicholasP - Posted September 28 2022 - 7:07 AM

NicholasP

    Vendor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 763 posts
  • LocationGrand Rapids, Michigan

What are everyone's thoughts about underage minors obtaining permits through their parents names? (FYI i do not support or encourage this, but i know some people do it)

I don't see the problem. There are a lot of minors out there that are more educated in containing ants properly in nests and that stuff than many adult ant keepers. What I would say though is let them only if they're 13+ or very trusted. If they do it correctly and their setup is approved by APHIS, I don't see the problem. I'm a minor and my APHIS office was perfectly fine with it.


Edited by NicholasP, September 28 2022 - 7:13 AM.


#9 Offline Ants_Dakota - Posted September 28 2022 - 7:25 AM

Ants_Dakota

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • LocationSioux Falls, South Dakota

 

What are everyone's thoughts about underage minors obtaining permits through their parents names? (FYI i do not support or encourage this, but i know some people do it)

I don't see the problem. There are a lot of minors out there that are more educated in containing ants properly in nests and that stuff than many adult ant keepers. What I would say though is let them only if they're 13+ or very trusted. If they do it correctly and their setup is approved by APHIS, I don't see the problem. I'm a minor and my APHIS office was perfectly fine with it.

 

Interesting. You sure APHIS allows minors to gain permits?


Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. -Proverbs 6: 6-8

My South Dakotan Shop Here

Attention Ant-Keepers in South Dakota! Join the SoDak(Society Of Dakotan Ant Keepers)


#10 Offline NicholasP - Posted September 28 2022 - 7:37 AM

NicholasP

    Vendor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 763 posts
  • LocationGrand Rapids, Michigan

If you do it through your parent's name. Then in theory from what I remember once you are of age you can switch over the permits from your parents to your name. The way APHIS operates though varies per state as I have heard many different things from my friends. That's just how it was for me.


Edited by NicholasP, September 28 2022 - 7:39 AM.

  • FinWins likes this

#11 Offline Ants_Dakota - Posted September 28 2022 - 7:48 AM

Ants_Dakota

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • LocationSioux Falls, South Dakota

If you do it through your parent's name. Then in theory from what I remember once you are of age you can switch over the permits from your parents to your name. The way APHIS operates though varies per state as I have heard many different things from my friends. That's just how it was for me.

is a different permit than the PPQ-526 required to sell ants?


  • FinWins likes this

Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. -Proverbs 6: 6-8

My South Dakotan Shop Here

Attention Ant-Keepers in South Dakota! Join the SoDak(Society Of Dakotan Ant Keepers)


#12 Offline NicholasP - Posted September 28 2022 - 7:51 AM

NicholasP

    Vendor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 763 posts
  • LocationGrand Rapids, Michigan

 

If you do it through your parent's name. Then in theory from what I remember once you are of age you can switch over the permits from your parents to your name. The way APHIS operates though varies per state as I have heard many different things from my friends. That's just how it was for me.

is a different permit than the PPQ-526 required to sell ants?

 

I believe yes. there's a different permit for selling ants. Take a look at this link and look on the list of permits in the middle. If there isn't a permit there for selling ants and insects, then it'll be in the same PPQ526 not the PPQ526A. APHIS has a youtube channel now where they uploaded a tutorial of how to file a PPQ526 pemit.


Edited by NicholasP, September 28 2022 - 7:52 AM.

  • Ants_Dakota and FinWins like this

#13 Offline dspdrew - Posted September 28 2022 - 8:37 AM

dspdrew
  • LocationSanta Ana, CA

I wish people would stop conflating "keeping" with "transporting [across state lines]".


  • sL0wNsteady, bmb1bee and FinWins like this

#14 Offline Serafine - Posted September 28 2022 - 10:41 PM

Serafine

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,782 posts
  • LocationGermany

I wish people would stop conflating "keeping" with "transporting [across state lines]".

The person who started this threat specifically referred to non-native ants. Getting those by whatever legal or illegal method usually requires transporting them across state lines or even country borders (because if it didn't they'd be native by definition).

 

Sure, you can draw the line between native and non-native at city borders or county lines (which works for some species) but usually that's clearly not what people mean when they talk about non-native animals.


Edited by Serafine, September 28 2022 - 10:43 PM.

  • bmb1bee likes this

We should respect all forms of consciousness. The body is just a vessel, a mere hull.

Welcome to Lazy Tube - My Camponotus Journal


#15 Offline MrPurpleB - Posted September 28 2022 - 11:03 PM

MrPurpleB

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 307 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA

Wait, something like Tetramorium Immigrans is non-native to California right? But I can still feasible catch one without having to transport state lines?

 

I don't follow the scientific lingo, so maybe non-native specifically refers to like something, or in a formal context invasive/introduced species are usually referred outside of non-native, technically being non-native? My monkey head is scratching.


  • bmb1bee likes this

#16 Offline T.C. - Posted September 28 2022 - 11:04 PM

T.C.

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3,059 posts

Really unless the illegal trading transaction is done on the forum, there is nothing that can be done about it and as such there is no point in talking about it. I could post a journal about a species that doesn't exist here in the U.S. and I would not be breaking the forum rules even if it was obtained illegally. The only time it should be brought up is in the case the transaction is being done on this platform or someone you speculate is doing it and might not be aware of the laws here in the U.S.   Informing people in my opinion isn't a big deal, however I have seen some people accuse others of "illegal activities."  It's just not necessary.


  • AnthonyP163, MrPurpleB, sL0wNsteady and 3 others like this
“If I am killed for simply living, let death be kinder than man.” -Althea Davis

#17 Offline Ants_Dakota - Posted September 30 2022 - 7:20 AM

Ants_Dakota

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,059 posts
  • LocationSioux Falls, South Dakota

What are everyone's thoughts about underage minors obtaining permits through their parents names? 

After a bit of research, NicholasP is correct, minors are allowed to gain permits under their parents names. Quite fascinating the government allows this, but APHIS is really the best.


Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise! It has no commander, no overseer or ruler, yet it stores its provisions in summer and gathers its food at harvest. -Proverbs 6: 6-8

My South Dakotan Shop Here

Attention Ant-Keepers in South Dakota! Join the SoDak(Society Of Dakotan Ant Keepers)


#18 Offline bmb1bee - Posted September 30 2022 - 7:35 AM

bmb1bee

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 752 posts
  • LocationHayward, CA

What kind of permit would be needed to import ant species from other states?


"Float like a butterfly sting like a bee, his eyes can't hit what the eyes can't see." - Muhammad Ali

 

Check out my shop and Camponotus journal! Discord user is bmb1bee if you'd like to chat.


#19 Offline OiledOlives - Posted September 30 2022 - 7:38 AM

OiledOlives

    Vendor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 657 posts
  • LocationVirginia

What kind of permit would be needed to import ant species from other states?

PPQ-526



#20 Offline dspdrew - Posted September 30 2022 - 8:12 AM

dspdrew
  • LocationSanta Ana, CA

 

I wish people would stop conflating "keeping" with "transporting [across state lines]".

The person who started this threat specifically referred to non-native ants. Getting those by whatever legal or illegal method usually requires transporting them across state lines or even country borders (because if it didn't they'd be native by definition).

 

Sure, you can draw the line between native and non-native at city borders or county lines (which works for some species) but usually that's clearly not what people mean when they talk about non-native animals.

 

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Nobody is suggesting the ants were or were not illegally transported into the State they are in. Just because someone has them, does not mean they did anything illegal. Has it ever occurred to you that someone else may have illegally transported them into the State, and then sold them to someone else? This is why people need to stop conflating those two words.


  • Somethinghmm, MinigunL5, KadinB and 2 others like this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users