Jump to content

  • Chat
  •  
  •  

Welcome to Formiculture.com!

This is a website for anyone interested in Myrmecology and all aspects of finding, keeping, and studying ants. The site and forum are free to use. Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation points to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!

Photo

Camponotus discolor vs. decipiens; a bigger issue than you might think


  • Please log in to reply
4 replies to this topic

#1 Offline CheetoLord02 - Posted March 2 2022 - 1:23 PM

CheetoLord02

    Vendor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 781 posts
  • LocationMesa, AZ

*
POPULAR

It's not hard to overlook an issue of a simple mis-identification; after all, it happens to the best of us all the time. Especially when it comes to Camponotus decipiens and discolor; two red and black Myrmentoma that if you don't know what you're looking for might be pretty difficult to tell apart.

So why am I making this thread?

Well first, let me go ahead and point out the difference. It's really simple; in C. discolor, the majors and queens have abundant hair around the malar region of the face, which is easily visible with most decent-ish photos. Here's a few examples:






Now C. decipiens, which clearly lack these malar hairs:


https://media.discor...010&height=1340



But still; if the only difference is a few hairs, then who cares, right?

Well, there are a few other key points that need to be mentioned. Colony size and rarity.

Evidence suggests that the maximum colony size for C. decipiens is anywhere from a few hundred to right around 1,000 workers. Not bad, but when C. discolor seem to be able to get well over 2,000, it's a pretty substantial difference. C. discolor are also far rarer, with C. decipiens being considered 'common' in much of their range, with C. discolor being rarely collected at all.

But ok, I'll just get to the point already. Ant shops in North America are mislabeling their ants. It's one thing to sell misidentified species, but on top of that, one could be seen to have a higher value due to their increased rarity and larger colony size. I mean I know for sure that I'd much prefer to keep C. discolor over decipiens any day.

So then why is it that AntsEmporium AND Tarheel Ants are BOTH selling C. decipiens as C. discolor. The issue has been pointed out to them in private, AND they are operating on strict permits, which only allow the distribution of a specific ant species; and NOT the species they are distributing. These shops are sending C. decipiens across state lines with the incorrect permit, or effectively without a permit at all. 
Note: Tarheel Ants, after the issue was pointed out, is sending both C. decipiens and C. discolor permits with the colonies being sent out. That said, his colonies are STILL being sold as C. discolor on his website.

If you don't believe me, here is each of those shops' listings for "Camponotus discolor"; their provided images clearly show a lack of malar hairs, meaning the ants that are being displayed and sold are in fact C. decipiens.


https://antsemporium...onotus-discolor
https://tarheelants....orkersants-only
https://tarheelants....micarium-bundle


This, in my opinion, is an issue that desperately needs to be addressed. These shops have a responsibility to sell correctly identified and LEGAL ant colonies, and by selling one species as another, neither of these are happening, and again depending on how harsh you wish to be, this could also be seen as a borderline scam, since the advertised species may have a higher value than the species that is actually being delivered. This is clearly a widespread enough issue that it needs to be pointed out and hopefully fixed.


P.S.: For the record, this is not a business thing. I don't even sell ants; and it's better for me when these shops do well and sell more ants, as then more people need to buy formicaria for their colonies. This is solely in the interest of the consumers and the antkeeping community as a whole, as y'all are my first priority when it comes to situations like this.


Edited by CheetoLord02, March 2 2022 - 1:33 PM.

  • gcsnelling, AnthonyP163, Mettcollsuss and 14 others like this

#2 Offline CheetoLord02 - Posted March 4 2022 - 11:05 PM

CheetoLord02

    Vendor

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 781 posts
  • LocationMesa, AZ

Quick update: I had a conversation with AntsEmporium, and a disclaimer has been added to their C. decipiens page. I believe the word is getting around to THA as well, so hopefully we'll see a similar solution there.

I just would like to reiterate: I do not think that either of these entities were acting out of malice. It is a fairly obscure ID, and I fully trust that when making the listing, they believed they had exclusively C. discolor. I just really felt that something needed to be said publicly to address the issue, and so far so good. This is by far the most civil that one of these issues being solved has been, and hopefully signals a better future when it comes to respectfully addressing and solving problems like this.


  • ANTdrew, Somethinghmm, MinigunL5 and 5 others like this

#3 Online gcsnelling - Posted March 5 2022 - 4:52 AM

gcsnelling

    Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,654 posts

And this situation points out quite well one of the major issues I have with the ant trade. If people are going to sell/trade ants they need to get a whole lot better at making their identifications which means among other things learning how to use a damn key. I am glad this issue was resolved. relatively painlessly.


  • ConcordAntman, Kaelwizard, MinigunL5 and 6 others like this

#4 Offline futurebird - Posted February 13 2024 - 11:07 AM

futurebird

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 826 posts
  • LocationNew York City, NY

I pointed this out to Tar Heel years ago since when I got my colony I couldn't find those hairs and was confused. I'm glad he has both permits now. And feel a little vindicated since I thought I was just bad at doing identification. 

 

That said smaller max size is good news as I still have this colony and it's a little unmangagable LOL. Well not really, I just need to suck it up and give them a third outworld. 


  • rptraut likes this

Starting this July I'm posting videos of my ants every week on youTube.

I like to make relaxing videos that capture the joy of watching ants.

If that sounds like your kind of thing... follow me >here<


#5 Offline JesseTheAntKid - Posted February 14 2024 - 2:34 PM

JesseTheAntKid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • LocationHouston TX

ERMAGHERD THANK YOU I WAS HAVING TROUBLE FIGURING OUT WHETHER I WAS LOOKING AT C. DECIPIENS OR C. DISCOLOR 

now to get my sample


Currently keeping: Pheidole obscurithorax (FINALLY I CAN STUDY THEM AND HAVE THEIR COOL MAJORS  B)), Tetramorium bicarinatum, Solenopsis spp. (probably xyloni, the queens are tiny hehe)

Wanting: Atta texana, Camponotus planatus (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE CAN SOMEONE HOOK ME UP WITH ATTA)

Previously kept: Monomorium minimum, Pheidole dentata

 

"ATTAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!" -Me

"AAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" -Even more me

"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"- Me personified





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users