18 replies to this topic

[TheMicroPlanet]

Might be a tricky time to ask this, what with the US presidential election coming up. But really, that's what prompted me to wonder. How do ants vote? As in, how does a colony make decisions on who should forage, where the little ones should be kept, where to move, etc? 

[Ants_Dakota]

the oldest ones do the foraging, and the newest ones care for the brood and queen

[TheMicroPlanet]

the oldest ones do the foraging, and the newest ones care for the brood and queen

Well yeah, but that's pretty broad. How do they decide more specific things that aren't just the ants going through the motions (if they can do anything else)? Colonies deciding to move immediately comes to mind, like i said before.

[TheMicroPlanet]

Maybe I just have the wrong preconception of how ants do their daily bits and pieces.

 

Well, here I come with more questions. How much of an ant's behavior arises from itself, and how much arises from its cooperation and communication with the colony?

Edited by TheMicroPlanet, November 1 2020 - 5:33 PM.

[ZTYguy]

It probably depends on the species but, i'd say its 50/50

[ponerinecat]

They don't. Ants have no higher organization or beforehand planning. Look up emergence for a more in depth explanation.

[TheMicroPlanet]

They don't. Ants have no higher organization or beforehand planning. Look up emergence for a more in depth explanation.

Though I understand where you're coming from, I don't mean "voting" in the human sense. Really, i'm just asking how a colony decides to do stuff. 

[TestSubjectOne]

I'm currently reading a 500 page book by Bert Holldobbler and E.O. Wilson, The Superorganism, on the subject of how social insects organize to form colonies. Needless to say, it is a complex topic and varies a lot among species, but fundamentally it comes from emergence as ponerinecat said. Basically, ants act in predictable and simple ways that allow them to form into a complex and fine tuned colony that is capable of doing things like making decisions on where to forage or creating a complex nest designed to keep the brood inside at a constant temperature. This is also how simple neurons can interact to create a complex person. I'd highly recommend that you read the book for yourself if you are interested in the topic, there are some cheap copies on Amazon.

[KitsAntVa]

I notice different castes of workers in a lot of my ants and other peoples ants. A myrmecocystus queen will lay eggs that make repletes different color and larger than foraging workers. Those workers are meant for nest dutys for their whole life unlike foragers which tend to brood when young and forage when old. A formica pallidefulva queen lays eggs that make foragers and nest tenders. I have observed little workers with orange thorax tend to brood and never leave the nest not even if they are old. There is 2 bigger black workers that do all the exploring. There's not much to say about who does what because all ant colonies are different, pogonomyrmex have nest tenders which is like 75% of their colony and the other 15% are death workers sorta that forage and kill anything until larger sizes.

[AntsDakota]

Pleometrophic species vote on queens based on how fit and productive they are. The losers are killed and eaten.

[TheMicroPlanet]

Thanks for the detailed answers (and i'd love to get The Superorganism sometime!), but I'm asking more about the mechanism by which the ants make these decisions, and how it compares to human voting systems. Like, is it just the strongest and most abundant pheromone goes, or is there some voting hierarchy, how much of a say does an ant from a given caste or role have, or what?

[ponerinecat]

Thanks for the detailed answers (and i'd love to get The Superorganism sometime!), but I'm asking more about the mechanism by which the ants make these decisions, and how it compares to human voting systems. Like, is it just the strongest and most abundant pheromone goes, or is there some voting hierarchy, how much of a say does an ant from a given caste or role have, or what?

They don't  Ants have no higher decision making process or at least none have been observed. It's much too complex to sum it up in a forum post as there are countless influencing factors and various factor prioritizations depending on the species, and that's not counting the fact that we still don't know a whole lot about the subject. So for a simple answer, ants take in many, many environmental cues, like water entering the nest, airflow, vibrations, season, or temperature and social cues, like population count, individual caste population, colony age, and the activities of other ants, and those trigger different reactions. It's not a simple if 1 then 2 process either, countless reaction and stimuli are layered on top of each other in different levels of priority. For example: in Pheidole, majors are normally reserved as a defense or food milling caste. In a normal colony they barely do any work. But if you remove the majority of the minors, the majors will sense that population difference and begin to fill in the roles the minors played. That's an example of a population cue. An environmental cue would be like how some tropical Pheidole immediately evacuate the nest if a single water droplet is placed at the entrance; the species is highly sensitive to potential flooding and as such places concentrations of water higher up on the priority list than other ants do.

[ponerinecat]

I notice different castes of workers in a lot of my ants and other peoples ants. A myrmecocystus queen will lay eggs that make repletes different color and larger than foraging workers. Those workers are meant for nest dutys for their whole life unlike foragers which tend to brood when young and forage when old. A formica pallidefulva queen lays eggs that make foragers and nest tenders. I have observed little workers with orange thorax tend to brood and never leave the nest not even if they are old. There is 2 bigger black workers that do all the exploring. There's not much to say about who does what because all ant colonies are different, pogonomyrmex have nest tenders which is like 75% of their colony and the other 15% are death workers sorta that forage and kill anything until larger sizes.

Again, these do not count as castes. This is simple using workers for the role they fit best depending on what roles are needed. Large workers are repletes because they can store more food and tend to be more resource consuming to produce, they're not predetermined as repletes from the very start(worker size varies considerably based on things like how much food is fed to them or the temperature they are kept at, it's not determined from the moment of conception.) Smaller workers in F. pallidefulva stay in the nest because they are vulnerable and less well suited for the outside world. Based on the fact that your colony only has 2 large foragers I can also assume the small ants are nanitics. Pogonomyrmex have 75% nest tenders because they don't need that many workers out and foraging, if you look closely I think you'll notice the majority of nest tenders don't tend the nest much at all. They're just being held as reserves in the safety of their nest. You can try an experiment; start limiting the amount of food your Pogonomyrmex take in. I'm predicting the amount of nest tenders will drop sharply as the reserves begin searching for food.

[TheMicroPlanet]

 

Thanks for the detailed answers (and i'd love to get The Superorganism sometime!), but I'm asking more about the mechanism by which the ants make these decisions, and how it compares to human voting systems. Like, is it just the strongest and most abundant pheromone goes, or is there some voting hierarchy, how much of a say does an ant from a given caste or role have, or what?

 So for a simple answer, ants take in many, many environmental cues, like water entering the nest, airflow, vibrations, season, or temperature and social cues, like population count, individual caste population, colony age, and the activities of other ants, and those trigger different reactions. It's not a simple if 1 then 2 process either, countless reaction and stimuli are layered on top of each other in different levels of priority.

 

To be honest, this is pretty much the answer I was looking for. " like population count, individual caste population, colony age, and the activities of other ants" specifically. I've got to find some better wording...

[OhNoNotAgain]

Thanks for the detailed answers (and i'd love to get The Superorganism sometime!), but I'm asking more about the mechanism by which the ants make these decisions, and how it compares to human voting systems. Like, is it just the strongest and most abundant pheromone goes, or is there some voting hierarchy, how much of a say does an ant from a given caste or role have, or what?

 

It's not necessarily the best parallel, but have you looked into the research into honeybee dances? That might be analogous and give you some insights.

I think I understand what you're saying and I'm interested, too. I guess it may be like a computer program that's mostly genetic/epigenetic, with variable inputs such as current colony size, temperature, water, food, etc. But then, individual learning also has a role, like with the discussion of how ants teach each other information (such as how to reach foraging areas).

[OhNoNotAgain]

If you haven't read it, I posted the article mentioning individual teaching/learning in a thread about ant navigation.

The author is 

"Ted Pavlic

, Research scientist in social-insect lab (focus on decentralized decision making)"

 

So I would suggest googling him and finding other stuff he's written. This is another article you might find interesting by Ted Pavlic. The topic: ant disputes/conflicts within the same nest.

 

https://www.quora.co...sonal-arguments

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, November 4 2020 - 12:39 PM.

[Froggy]

didn't Kurzgesagt make a video on emergence?

 

here: 

Edited by Froggy, November 4 2020 - 12:41 PM.

[ponerinecat]

Kurz is a great introductory but they tend to simplify things for their viewers. I only got more confused by that video, if I'm gonna be honest. Had to do some more of my own reading before I understood the topic.

[TechAnt]

Kurz is a great introductory but they tend to simplify things for their viewers. I only got more confused by that video, if I'm gonna be honest. Had to do some more of my own reading before I understood the topic.

Kurz is a great channel for summarizing things, basic information, and just fun to watch. But I agree to understand these topics and to get a better grasp, you should look to other sources, funny thing is that Kurz lists all their sources and provides links to them. So you can watch those and go take a look at their sources too. Then if that is not enough, go adventure the internet and look for yourself.

Edited by TechAnt, November 4 2020 - 2:11 PM.