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OhNoNotAgain’s neglected Pogonomyrmex have an alate!

pogonomyrmex californicus subnitidus

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#1 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted June 22 2020 - 11:30 AM

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So over the past year, I've actually tried Pogonomyrmex before. And had some ungood results. So I wasn't even sure I'd start this journal, but just in case it has anything useful for someone else....

Why Pogonomyrmex? They are big and handsome and primarily eat seeds, plus they generally suck at climbing (which is becoming important to me as I deal with increasing escape attempts by my larger colonies). As long as I've got seeds for Veromessors and am set up for desert species, why not? I confess I want to eventually have enough workers I can have an actual working Uncle Milton "ant farm" with not just workers, but brood. Maybe by the time in-person school is back I can have a full demonstration Uncle Milton with a real ant colony in it for the kids to observe (though with real dirt, not mystery white stuff [edit: crushed perlite?]).

The one big Pogonomyrmex downside is their painful sting and reputation for some of the queens dying.

Here are my previous #PogoFails:

1. Pogonomyrmex subdentatus queen. I didn't have heat for her until very late, so her brood wasn't growing even at 80F room temp (I've read they need really high temps in the growing season and room temp sends them into diapause over the winter), and when I finally did give her heat and some dirt, the dirt brought her near the window, she got trapped in condensation, and died :facepalm: . It was very sad as she'd been hanging in there so hard and I thought she finally had a chance.

2. Pogonomyrmex californicus bicolor colony. I had them in a dirt box. (If you've seen Drew's pics, you know P. calis dig AWAY from the windows in such a way that you can't see into most of their tunnels.) I also added a few springtails because the dirt got so moldy from seeds and food. They appeared to be doing well until I turned off heat to give them a winter break. The springtails began to dominate. The colony moved their brood where I could no longer see it (with the heat on, they had kept the brood at the bottom, where the tunnels were visible, but afterwards it was impossible to find the brood). I stopped seeing workers at the surface. I might have overwatered or underwatered. Basically they went on a steep decline after I turned off the heat, and then they disappeared completely. I was hoping the ants would eat the springtails but it could be the opposite happened (I've heard springtails may eat brood).

3. I did, by the way, have some Uncle Milton workers in an Uncle Milton to show to school kids. The Pogonomyrmex occidentalis workers were big (I seem to remember they were the size of the P. subdentatus queen) and red and beautiful. Of course, though, as they were a winter crop of workers, many were probably quite old and then they rapidly died off. They did make some nice tunnels for the kids to see, though. [Edit: It was actually harder than I thought to watch the big orphaned occi workers dying. At first they were grooming each other in a friendly manner and exploring and all that and that was nice to watch, but as they died they brought more and more corpses out and buried them and soon it was just a couple of them left. I mean I'm sure it's just human projection but it was sad to watch.]

All that said, as much as everyone says Pogonomyrmex do best in dirt, for founding I decided I would try it without dirt. I got some THA test tubes with inserts, but eventually didn't use them. I asked around and heard mixed things about mini-hearths and Pogonomyrmex, but given someone in the THA group HAS had success founding P. calis in mini-hearths, I figure it's possible.

Pogonomyrmex californicus
2020.6.16 - 22

A solitary P. californicus (NOT bicolor) arrived in the mail (another one didn't survive). She was very agitated in the glass tube. I briefly stuck her in a THA insert tube, but she was still so agitated I decided screw it, and put her in a mini-hearth. I put in a small bowl of seeds as well. She ran around and seemed positively relieved to find a way down into what her ant brain must think is "dirt."

Over the next week I see her come up sometimes to run around and check out the seeds. I did add a sugar water feeder, too, and a seedling heating mat. She seems not totally happy with the nest, but I think I see one egg on the water tower.

P. calis apparently do need seeds during founding. The foraging needs are one reason I chose to try a mini-hearth.

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus
2020.6.18 - 22

A group of 4 queens that have been identified as P. subnitidus (ID'ed by Pogoqueen) arrived from Sleepy.
The next day I observed that they were extremely agitated in their test tube. I put them into another mini-hearth with a dish of seeds and a sugar water feeder. The nest area had accidentally gotten soaking wet, but I know it dries quickly.

The four queens were very different.
  • One queen immediately found the tube going down into the nest and was slurping up water from the ground. She was so fast I didn't even see her go down. I only figured out she had afterward.
  • Another queen shortly after apparently smelled the water vapor coming up from the nest entrance, and also went down into the nest and began slurping water from the ground.
  • The third queen stumbled around and eventually sniffed out the ant nectar and pretty much plugged her antennae and face into it and just drank sugar water.
  • The fourth queen seemed extremely derpy and ran around helplessly trying to climb up at the corners, bumbling around, going near but never close enough to the nest entrance and the ant nectar dispenser. FINALLY she seemed to stumble accidentally close to the ant nectar and was soon slurping down sugar water with the other ant. I guess there's one derpy queen in every bunch....
So I guess they hadn't been getting adequate moisture from the test tube cotton.

Anyway I got some heat for the two Pogonomyrmex mini-hearths (the P. cali and the P. subnitidus) and left them alone for a few days to acclimate and hopefully decide to start laying eggs. Today I checked on them. The subnit four are clustered together and seem to have a very small egg pile.

By the way, I keep thinking about the material on this page:
https://www.asu.edu/...mrex queens.htm

It contains information on building the flat-style ant farm, plus feeding and heating advice (e.g., "Species of Pogonomyrmex do best at warm temperatures, with most species doing best when they are maintained at 30oC or higher.I generally keep colonies in an incubator at 35oC, but even temperatures up to about 40oC are fine...").

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, July 31 2022 - 1:22 PM.

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Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.


#2 Offline AntsDakota - Posted June 22 2020 - 1:23 PM

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What exactly is that ‘mystery white stuff’?

"God made..... all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. (including ants) And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 NIV version


#3 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted June 22 2020 - 1:38 PM

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What exactly is that ‘mystery white stuff’?

Crushed perlite I think.


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Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.


#4 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted June 24 2020 - 3:08 PM

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6.24.2020

 

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus

Oh great. I just now looked in on the Pogonomyrmex subnitidus 4 queen group, and I was like, "That outworld looks awfully ... dark? It's ... wet. Uh oh."

Turns out some brilliant queen had decided to stick seeds to their THA nectar feeder's mesh, which naturally caused it to flood out, and the outworld was drenched in sugar water.  :facepalm:

Not knowing what else to do, I put the mini-hearth under some running water, put in just a bit, wiped it up, and repeat a couple times to try to rinse out some of the sugar. Last time I overdid the water and some went into the nest, but oh well.

The brood pile next to the water tower is still dry. The outworld smells a bit funky. I'm leaving the lid off and hope it will dry reasonably well. Later I'll put the feeder back in.

 

Pogonomyrmex californicus

As long as I was updating the journal, I took a peek. The lone Pogonomyrmex cali is on the water tower with her tiny pile of just a few eggs. She got nervous from me peeking. I put the mini-hearth back. I really wonder if having multiple queens help the queens stay calm and feel safer.

 

Wow, fascinating how if I write p-o-g-o it expands automatically to Pogonomyrmex. lol nice feature.


Edited by OhNoNotAgain, June 24 2020 - 3:12 PM.

Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.


#5 Offline ANTdrew - Posted June 24 2020 - 3:12 PM

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Sorry! The THA liquid feeders are pretty useless.
"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#6 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted June 24 2020 - 3:15 PM

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Sorry! The THA liquid feeders are pretty useless.

 

They're actually okay, and seem to be easier for some of my dumber ants to figure out.

But both THA and the byFormica feeders flood a LOT for me ... apparently because my ants just love to stick foreign objects into them.  :facepalm:  :facepalm:


Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.


#7 Offline Nanahira - Posted June 25 2020 - 10:46 PM

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P.calis are usually very study in the mail (from my experience selling them).

do you know how one of yours ended up dead?


Edited by 500miles, June 25 2020 - 10:47 PM.

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#8 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted June 27 2020 - 9:02 PM

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P.calis are usually very study in the mail (from my experience selling them).

do you know how one of yours ended up dead?

 

No idea. Her gaster was broken off though ... dunno if that happened post-mortem or was the cause of death or not.

 

And here are some photos.

 

P. subnitidus. Love this red color.

 

Pogo-subnits.jpg

 

P. californicus. I think I like this color more than the desert bicolor variant.

PogoCali.jpg


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Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.


#9 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted July 13 2020 - 8:53 AM

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2020.7.13

Just a quick update.

 

P. cali: Looks like she has growing larvae! Woohoo. Rice grain size, which is good.

 

P. subnit: Ugh, down to 3 and one of the remaining 3 looked a little meh. I was wondering what had happened to number 4 and then saw a shiny red gaster in their trash pile. Gah. No nanitics yet. I hope they are fully poly and not pleo!


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Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.


#10 Offline TechAnt - Posted July 13 2020 - 8:54 AM

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Oof, rip that queen.
My Ants:
(x1) Campontous semitstaceus ~20 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Camponotus vicinus ~10 workers, 1 Queen (all black variety)
(x1) Tetramorium immigrans ~100 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Myrmercocystus mexicanus -1 Queen
(x2) Mymercocystus mimcus -1 Queen
(x1) Mymercocystus testaceus ~45 workers, 1 Queen

#11 Offline AntsDakota - Posted July 13 2020 - 9:11 AM

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Housing pleometrophic species in which the queens actually fight makes me nervous. I mean, in many pleometrophic species, the workers choose the fittest queen and kill the rest. I'm ok with that, as there will be one queen left. However if the queens do the fighting, there is always a chance the queens will all wind up dead.  %)


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"God made..... all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. (including ants) And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 NIV version


#12 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted July 21 2020 - 6:58 PM

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2020.7.21

 

Just bothered the Pogonomyrmex to get some pics.

 

 

P. cali's a bit far away from the glass, on the water tower. But has a brood. She is definitely nervous, though.

 

IMG_1534.jpg

 

P. subnits are in this peaceful, maternal mood. The peace before the possible Game of Thrones queen massacre. One of the brood is turning pupal colors and the games might soon begin....

 

IMG_1526.jpg


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Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.


#13 Offline Antkid12 - Posted July 21 2020 - 7:01 PM

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Awesome!


Ants I have: Tapinoma sessile(2 queen colony). RED MORPH Camponotus neacticus(now has pupae!), Tetramorium immigrans (x3), Aphaenogaster sp, Temnothorax sp, Brachymyrmex sp.   possibly infertile   :(,  Ponera pennsylvanica, and Pheidole morrisi!  :yahoo: 

 

Other insects: Polistes sp. Queen

                    

Ants I need: Pheidole sp., Trachymyrmex sp., Crematogaster cerasi , Dorymyrmex sp. Most wanted: Pheidole morrisii

 

                    

                   

 

 


#14 Offline Kaelwizard - Posted July 22 2020 - 6:20 AM

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2020.7.21

Just bothered the Pogonomyrmex to get some pics.


P. cali's a bit far away from the glass, on the water tower. But has a brood. She is definitely nervous, though.

IMG_1534.jpg

P. subnits are in this peaceful, maternal mood. The peace before the possible Game of Thrones queen massacre. One of the brood is turning pupal colors and the games might soon begin....

IMG_1526.jpg

I thought they were polygynous?

#15 Offline TechAnt - Posted July 22 2020 - 8:21 AM

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2020.7.21
Just bothered the Pogonomyrmex to get some pics.
P. cali's a bit far away from the glass, on the water tower. But has a brood. She is definitely nervous, though.IMG_1534.jpg
P. subnits are in this peaceful, maternal mood. The peace before the possible Game of Thrones queen massacre. One of the brood is turning pupal colors and the games might soon begin....IMG_1526.jpg

I thought they were polygynous?
Yeah, subs are polygonus.
My Ants:
(x1) Campontous semitstaceus ~20 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Camponotus vicinus ~10 workers, 1 Queen (all black variety)
(x1) Tetramorium immigrans ~100 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Myrmercocystus mexicanus -1 Queen
(x2) Mymercocystus mimcus -1 Queen
(x1) Mymercocystus testaceus ~45 workers, 1 Queen

#16 Offline AntsDakota - Posted July 22 2020 - 8:34 AM

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Even polygynous species fight occasionally, but I think it’s a worthy risk.

"God made..... all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. (including ants) And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 NIV version


#17 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted July 22 2020 - 10:30 AM

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No one is sure if they are poly or pleo. I've been told in this case that they are only poly if that area's have been proven to be poly, and so far no one knows about these particular ones.

Other people with the same Pogonomyrmex are also going to find out soon.  :lol: Hopefully someone's way ahead of me so I can separate them if it turns out they are pleo.  :lol:


Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.


#18 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted July 25 2020 - 11:47 PM

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2020.7.25

Checked while feeding the other colonies, and we have nanitics! Both P. cali and P. subnitidus have I think 2 (?) nanitics. Woohoo.

What's funny is P. cali is now next to the glass and P. sub have moved their brood onto the water tower, kinda swapping positions from when I last took photos.


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Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.


#19 Offline FSTP - Posted July 26 2020 - 12:36 AM

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really nice pics!


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#20 Offline OhNoNotAgain - Posted July 29 2020 - 6:29 PM

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2020.7.29

 

Checked on Pogonomyrmex today, and they are doing fine. Here're two pics of the P. subnits:

 

IMG_1633-Psubworker.jpg

 

The next photo is interesting because the queen looks so industrial, like made of interesting odd parts:

 

 

IMG_1636-Psub2.jpg

 

 

And (below) this is the P. cali (though you can't see her nanitics in this photo). Funny background to this pic: The queen was lugging this seed around and dropped it (apparently by accident) off the side of the water tower. She walked away, then appeared to think something like, "Wait, wasn't I just carrying something?" Then she went down to pick up the seed as seen in this picture. It's sort of amazing how INSECTS this small can keep track of what they were doing and remember to finish it, which is more than I might be able to say about myself when I walk into a room and go, "What did I come here to do again?!"

 

IMG_1642-Pcalioops.jpg


Edited by OhNoNotAgain, July 29 2020 - 6:55 PM.

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Formiculture Journals::

Veromessor pergandei, andrei; Novomessor cockerelli

Camponotus fragilis; also separate journal: Camponotus sansabeanus, vicinus, quercicola

Liometopum occidentale;  Prenolepis imparis; Myrmecocystus mexicanus

Pogonomyrmex subnitidus and previously californicus

Tetramorium sp.

Termites: Zootermopsis angusticollis

 

Isopods: A. gestroi, granulatum, kluugi, maculatum, vulgare; C. murina; P. hoffmannseggi, P. haasi, P. ornatus; V. parvus

Spoods: Phidippus sp.






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