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A discussion on feeding ants protein in liquid form

liquid protein nutrition

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20 replies to this topic

#1 Offline mallonje - Posted March 29 2019 - 12:46 PM

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I had a thought – an experimentation task if you will - near the end of last ant season and have spent the better part of my hobby time over the past few months perusing all that google, and public literature had to offer on the subject.

As such I now know there are varied and fervent opinions on the controversial subject of “liquid protein”.

I want to hear any anecdotal evidence you the myrmecological hobbyist might have about what you’ve tried, how you’ve failed – or succeeded, and with which species. 

 

 


Founding:

                 1 P. Imparis queen caught 4/26/18

                 2 L. Umbratus caught 5/8/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/7/18 1st Eggs 5/17/18 

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/17/18 1st Eggs 5/22/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/31/18

                 1 T. Caespitum(?) queen caught 6/1/18


#2 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted March 29 2019 - 1:10 PM

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I have had success with all my ants in using mealworm guts mixed with honey.
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#3 Offline Rstheant - Posted March 29 2019 - 2:21 PM

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Mash all my insects and a bit of honey, some hummingbird nectar, a tad of water, voliá, a great delicacy of all sorts. Not all ants like it, and it needs to be replaced often.
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#4 Offline mallonje - Posted March 29 2019 - 6:02 PM

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Anyone with experience with commercial or other homemade recipe products?

Founding:

                 1 P. Imparis queen caught 4/26/18

                 2 L. Umbratus caught 5/8/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/7/18 1st Eggs 5/17/18 

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/17/18 1st Eggs 5/22/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/31/18

                 1 T. Caespitum(?) queen caught 6/1/18


#5 Offline Serafine - Posted March 29 2019 - 6:51 PM

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Technically every fresh insect is liquid protein.


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We should respect all forms of consciousness. The body is just a vessel, a mere hull.

Welcome to Lazy Tube - My Camponotus Journal


#6 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted March 29 2019 - 6:54 PM

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Technically every fresh insect is liquid protein.

True, but I think he does not want to feed his ants insects.

#7 Offline mallonje - Posted March 29 2019 - 7:06 PM

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Nope I'm fine with feeder insects. I got a culture of isopods I got a dubia guy, and a lady who grows some of the biggest superworms ever.

I have an idea for an experiment. Keeping it close to the vest for now. But... I just need to better understand our collective success and failures with feeding liquid protein.

If that means carapace smoothy so be it. But if there's something better - like artificial hemolymph I'd like to learn more.
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Founding:

                 1 P. Imparis queen caught 4/26/18

                 2 L. Umbratus caught 5/8/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/7/18 1st Eggs 5/17/18 

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/17/18 1st Eggs 5/22/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/31/18

                 1 T. Caespitum(?) queen caught 6/1/18


#8 Offline drtrmiller - Posted March 30 2019 - 1:40 AM

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I have had success with all my ants in using mealworm guts mixed with honey.

 

A lot of people define success as "my ants will eat it."  But really, the best and truest measure of success for any ant diet is whether the ants get all the nutrients they need and can subsequently thrive to produce more ants.

 

Long-term, controlled experiments, involving many different test subjects, are most useful tool for forming to a conclusion as to whether a diet is beneficial to the ants.

 

Technically every fresh insect is liquid protein.

 

Are you saying insects are little water balloons?  I understand the proteins aren't as chewy as a steak, but I actually wouldn't call them liquid either.  The powerful muscle in a cricket leg is definitely not liquid, is it?

 

Spiders and sucking bugs that feed on insects rely on powerful digestive fluids to make insects into liquids which can then be sucked out, precisely because the juicy innards aren't fully liquid to begin with.


Edited by drtrmiller, March 30 2019 - 5:28 AM.

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byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#9 Offline Barristan - Posted March 30 2019 - 2:18 AM

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I think liquid protein is fine for all ant species which are able to do trophallaxis.

 

Some ants like Aphaenogaster spp. can't do trophallaxis so they rely on chewing off small pieces from insects and carry these pieces to the larvae or they carry the larvae to the dead insects so the larvae can feed by themselves.

 

But even ants of genera which are able to do trophallaxis do often chew off small pieces and lay these pieces onto a larvae so the larvae can feed by themselves. My guess is that it is a  lot more efficient to feed larvae this way instead of feeding them only via trophallaxis. Larvae are also able to feed on non liquid food too so they can exploit a dead insects better than worker ants which can only feed on liquid (which may contain only small particles).

 

So I think it would be better for colony development if you feed dead insects too and not only proteins in liquid form, but as I said in the beginning I think most ants will also do fine which only liquid proteins. But don't mix proteins and carbon hydrates that can be bad for ants.


Edited by Barristan, March 30 2019 - 2:19 AM.

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#10 Offline mallonje - Posted March 30 2019 - 6:57 PM

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But don't mix proteins and carbon hydrates that can be bad for ants.

How so? I haven't heard about this yet


Founding:

                 1 P. Imparis queen caught 4/26/18

                 2 L. Umbratus caught 5/8/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/7/18 1st Eggs 5/17/18 

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/17/18 1st Eggs 5/22/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/31/18

                 1 T. Caespitum(?) queen caught 6/1/18


#11 Offline drtrmiller - Posted March 30 2019 - 7:10 PM

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But don't mix proteins and carbon hydrates that can be bad for ants.

How so? I haven't heard about this yet

 

Not to oversimplify what is a poorly understood and under researched topic, but there are a number of studies that have all come to the conclusion that high consumption of "proteins" by adult worker ants results in increased worker mortality.  In other words, they don't live as long.

 

You're bound to come across this fast once you start reading all the scholarly articles written about synthetic ant diets, or more general topics like colony macronutrient regulation.


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byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#12 Offline mallonje - Posted March 30 2019 - 9:28 PM

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That's just it I'm not finding much in the way of scholarly articles about synthetic ant diets, or ant nutrition in general. 

That's why I thought my best bet would be to try and collect and correlate hobbyist knowledge. 

You seem well versed on the topic, if there's anything you'd like to pass my way I'd be eternally grateful   


Founding:

                 1 P. Imparis queen caught 4/26/18

                 2 L. Umbratus caught 5/8/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/7/18 1st Eggs 5/17/18 

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/17/18 1st Eggs 5/22/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/31/18

                 1 T. Caespitum(?) queen caught 6/1/18


#13 Offline Barristan - Posted March 30 2019 - 9:34 PM

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But don't mix proteins and carbon hydrates that can be bad for ants.

How so? I haven't heard about this yet

 

 

You can read more about that in the paper Ant workers die young and colonies collapse when fed a high-protein diet.

 

Normally ants will only collect food they need, so if there is not much need of proteins they will ignore this type of food source or just carry dead insects to their "garbage dump". So under normal circumstances you can't overfeed ants with proteins.

 

But if ants have no other choice like in the experiment done by the scientists who wrote that paper their protein intake might be too high and that is not healthy as the paper describes. The scientiests used an artificial food which was a mixture of carbon hydrates and proteins. So if an ants only want's to take in carbon hydrates it can't since the liquid also contains proteins.


Edited by Barristan, March 30 2019 - 9:35 PM.

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#14 Offline Serafine - Posted March 31 2019 - 2:16 AM

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In these studies they only used queenless, broodless colonies which are NOT a proper representation of an actual ant colony. Obviously the workers couldn't get rid of the protein and subsequently suffered from an accumulation of protein in their bodies - even humans who eat an excessive amount of protein get sick (sooner or later they get gout).

There's quite a significant chance that if those colonies had a queen and larvae they would have ramped up brood production or used an excessive amount of instar 3 larvae to process the protein. Larvae are part of an ant colony's protein metabolism - you can't just rip out 90% of a patient's liver and then conclude that minor amounts of cholesterol have a massive impact on human health.

 

It's probably still a good idea to not mix protein food and sugars too much (just because this combination rarely appears naturally) but I wouldn't describe those studies as in any way representative of what happens in an actual healthy ant colony.

 

Also, obviously the sugar vs protein ratio is very different for individual ant species. I can't see ants like Ponera coarctata drinking a lot of sugars (they mostly hunt small insects and millipedes in the soil) and even within the same genus things can be rather different - most large-colony Camponotus (ligniperda, herculeans, barbaricus) are known for their massive sugar consumption while many Camponotus species with smaller colonies (vagus, fallax) seem to prefer a much more protein-based diet.


Edited by Serafine, March 31 2019 - 2:23 AM.

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We should respect all forms of consciousness. The body is just a vessel, a mere hull.

Welcome to Lazy Tube - My Camponotus Journal


#15 Offline ANTndonesia - Posted April 3 2019 - 3:00 PM

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Cricket powder / soy protein powder / Oecophylla broods & pupae.

Treat your ants salt once a month. just a little.
I always give them dried saltwater baby shrimp.
 


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Polyrhachis dives. I 5 Queens, 83 Workers. << This colony keep biting and pulling 2 of their queens from the nest, so i decided to get them out. P. Dives III and P. Dives IV.

Polyrhachis dives. II 1 Queen, 16 Workers. First egg February 12th 2019.
Polyrhachis dives. III 1 Queen, First egg May 15th 2019.
Polyrhachis dives. IV 1 Unfertilized Queen.


#16 Offline drtrmiller - Posted April 3 2019 - 3:34 PM

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In these studies they only used queenless, broodless colonies which are NOT a proper representation of an actual ant colony.

 

True on all points.

 

But unless I'm misremembering, some studies not referenced here did use queenright colonies with larval brood, and came to similar conclusions.

 

And in any case, I do think there's still some value to studies of queenless, broodless colonies—you just have to take the facts into consideration, which you have so perfectly elucidated in your post.  Keep in mind, for example, that many species—particularly those that inhabit more extreme climates in which colonies undergo diapause—do not have brood at all for significantly long periods of the year.


Edited by drtrmiller, April 3 2019 - 3:37 PM.



byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#17 Offline mallonje - Posted April 3 2019 - 3:51 PM

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Drtrmiller -- any literature you can find and share?

Founding:

                 1 P. Imparis queen caught 4/26/18

                 2 L. Umbratus caught 5/8/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/7/18 1st Eggs 5/17/18 

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/17/18 1st Eggs 5/22/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/31/18

                 1 T. Caespitum(?) queen caught 6/1/18


#18 Offline mallonje - Posted April 3 2019 - 3:52 PM

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Cricket powder / soy protein powder / Oecophylla broods & pupae.

Treat your ants salt once a month. just a little.
I always give them dried saltwater baby shrimp.


Founding:

                 1 P. Imparis queen caught 4/26/18

                 2 L. Umbratus caught 5/8/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/7/18 1st Eggs 5/17/18 

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/17/18 1st Eggs 5/22/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/31/18

                 1 T. Caespitum(?) queen caught 6/1/18


#19 Offline mallonje - Posted April 3 2019 - 3:54 PM

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Cricket powder / soy protein powder / Oecophylla broods & pupae.

Treat your ants salt once a month. just a little.
I always give them dried saltwater baby shrimp.

I assume to get liquid, you rehydrate with water?

Is the salt a byproduct of your region? This is the first I've heard this suggested.

Edited by mallonje, April 3 2019 - 3:56 PM.

Founding:

                 1 P. Imparis queen caught 4/26/18

                 2 L. Umbratus caught 5/8/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/7/18 1st Eggs 5/17/18 

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/17/18 1st Eggs 5/22/18

                 1 C. Pennsylvanicus queen caught 5/31/18

                 1 T. Caespitum(?) queen caught 6/1/18


#20 Offline Serafine - Posted April 4 2019 - 2:07 AM

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And in any case, I do think there's still some value to studies of queenless, broodless colonies—you just have to take the facts into consideration, which you have so perfectly elucidated in your post.  Keep in mind, for example, that many species—particularly those that inhabit more extreme climates in which colonies undergo diapause—do not have brood at all for significantly long periods of the year.

True but ants that go into a summer estivation period usually have specialized ways to deal with that, for example Prenolepis imparis repletes are basically fat and protein storages (compared to real honey pots which mostly store sugars and water). Actually Prenolepis imparis even raises brood during their summer estivation period (that's why so many people fail at raising them, they need to stock up on protein during spring BEFORE they have brood, so they can raised their brood from the food stored in the repletes).

Even our ordinary Lasius niger here have the problem that during summer it can become so hot that they can barely leave their nests for several weeks, they just retreat to deeper chambers and live off the sugars, fat and protein their repletes have stocked up on before (and if in dire need they can still eat a part of the brood).
 

Is the salt a byproduct of your region? This is the first I've heard this suggested.

Ants need salt, too. Actually every living being with a basic nerve system (and thus a sodium potassium pump to keep it in a functioning state) needs salt.

I regularly feed my ants some shrimp, too. They even have a salt licking stone for rodents although I'm not sure if they're using it.


We should respect all forms of consciousness. The body is just a vessel, a mere hull.

Welcome to Lazy Tube - My Camponotus Journal





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