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CHROMERUST'S ANT FOOD RECIPE AND ANT FEEDING (VIDEO)


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#41 Offline Chromerust - Posted February 12 2015 - 8:23 AM

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Here you go ToeNhi

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#42 Offline Michaelofvancouver - Posted February 12 2015 - 10:09 AM

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Chromerust, please check your PMs.
I asked you whether I could put this on my website.
Also, would work with meat products other than chicken?

Edited by Michaelofvancouver, February 12 2015 - 10:10 AM.

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Here's my leopard gecko/ant youtube: https://goo.gl/cRAFbK

 

My ant website.

It contains a lot of information about ants, guides, videos, links, and more!

If you have any feedback, please post here or PM me, don't be shy!

 

I currently keep:

Camponotus modoc

Formica podzolica


#43 Offline Chromerust - Posted February 12 2015 - 11:16 AM

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Chromerust, please check your PMs.
I asked you whether I could put this on my website.
Also, would work with meat products other than chicken?

Reply sent! Feel free to experiment with using other ingredients, the sky is the limit really. I have a few other things I've tried myself with decent results.



#44 Offline Michaelofvancouver - Posted February 12 2015 - 10:11 PM

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I have another question about this formula. What is the purpose of the hummingbird nectar? There is already a sugar source (honey) and protein (chicken). 

 

Also, if I just buy raw chicken and boil it with nothing added, do I still have to do the whole desalination thing?


Edited by Michaelofvancouver, February 12 2015 - 10:11 PM.

Here's my leopard gecko/ant youtube: https://goo.gl/cRAFbK

 

My ant website.

It contains a lot of information about ants, guides, videos, links, and more!

If you have any feedback, please post here or PM me, don't be shy!

 

I currently keep:

Camponotus modoc

Formica podzolica


#45 Offline ToeNhi - Posted February 12 2015 - 10:15 PM

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Thanks for the video Chromerust. I've seen it multiple time on YouTube, but it never gets old. They are my favorite species, but I have not heard of them being in my area...yet.

-ToeNhi


#46 Offline Gregory2455 - Posted February 12 2015 - 11:45 PM

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I doubt they will be. Its too cold up there.



#47 Offline dspdrew - Posted February 13 2015 - 2:00 PM

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I have another question about this formula. What is the purpose of the hummingbird nectar? There is already a sugar source (honey) and protein (chicken). 

 

It's mainly for the water and preservative. The red color is also nice because it helps to show what ants and larvae have been eating it.



#48 Offline Michaelofvancouver - Posted February 13 2015 - 4:06 PM

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Since I have no idea where to get hummingbird nectar, can I add red food coloring insead?


Here's my leopard gecko/ant youtube: https://goo.gl/cRAFbK

 

My ant website.

It contains a lot of information about ants, guides, videos, links, and more!

If you have any feedback, please post here or PM me, don't be shy!

 

I currently keep:

Camponotus modoc

Formica podzolica


#49 Offline Chromerust - Posted February 13 2015 - 4:56 PM

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Since I have no idea where to get hummingbird nectar, can I add red food coloring insead?

What would be the point of adding food coloring other than making it red? The Hummingbird food has sugar and preservatives that are important. My ants didn't like the chicken from the can plain in my experience. Any supermarket should carry the hummingbird mix in the pet section, that's where I bought mine last time for about $3. ;)



#50 Offline dspdrew - Posted February 13 2015 - 4:58 PM

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Coloring helps make it more obvious that the ants and larvae are eating the food.



#51 Offline Michaelofvancouver - Posted February 13 2015 - 7:33 PM

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Hmmm..... I'll try making a small quantity without the hummingbird food for now, and then I'll go buy some hummingbird food during the weekend.


Here's my leopard gecko/ant youtube: https://goo.gl/cRAFbK

 

My ant website.

It contains a lot of information about ants, guides, videos, links, and more!

If you have any feedback, please post here or PM me, don't be shy!

 

I currently keep:

Camponotus modoc

Formica podzolica


#52 Offline Etherwulf - Posted February 14 2015 - 10:47 PM

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I feed all my colonies an ant jelly that I make myself. It is a variation of the classic Bhatkar-Whitcomb diet well as the A. Dussutour and S.J. Simpson diet which also contains preservatives and additional proteins to inhibit the growth of mold.

 

Right now, I've been experimenting with different versions to test receptivity and larvae growth. Unfortunately, I do not have sufficient colonies to conduct a controlled study. Neither do I have the time to do so. Hence, the best I can do is basically feed a colony on one version for a week before weighing their larvae,pupae and workers. Of course, taking into account the different castes of workers is important as well as the development stage of the larvae in question.

 

So far, all my colonies have been the most receptive to the version with 0.12% sodium benzoate. However, I've discovered that my Odontomachus prefers 0.02% - 0.06%. Not sure why but they are carnivorous ants unlike other generalist species so perhaps there's something to do with their diet.

 

Also, it doesn't mold even after a week in a high humidity environment of around 80% RH. Granted, I do supplement larger colonies with insects but in my experience, keeping them on this diet is a reliable way of getting the colony through the founding stage. Insects are also messier and cause mold. I feed all my founding queens this diet especially the starving ones. Even claustral queens eat readily when they have the chance. This has resulted in larger and heavier founding broods. For instance, one of my Solenopsis geminata queens successfully raised 23 workers when fed. Another unfed one only raised 16 workers.

 

Of course, this is not a properly conducted study since I do not have a sufficient representative sample but again this is from experience and experimentation.

 

Here's a screengrab of a timelapse I made of wild Pheidole sp. enjoying a snack of Orange V3.

 

med_gallery_229_319_200494.jpg

 

 

Until drew gets the subforum up and running, I think it is worthwhile quoting this post for completeness. 

 

Notice how they are breaking it up into smaller granules to carry it back to the colony. This is an important factor in formulating the diet. You want a high moisture content to allow the ants to feed because adult ants are only able to eat liquid food. Any solid food may or may not be fed to the larvae. Hence, the consistency of the diet is crucial. Not too watery and not too solid. Not that much of a problem with this diet but ants may break the granules up and store them in the nest, leading to mold. Why would this happen you might ask if hummingbird nectar contains preservatives? Allow me to explain.

 

The preservative present is more likely than not, sodium benzoate which is only effective at a pH at 4.5 or below which is why earlier versions of my diets molded when I failed to add ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). Furthermore, I would like to again stress the importance of preparing the food in a clean environment with clean tools (spoons, stirrers, etc)  so as to fully benefit from the use of sodium benzoate as a mold inhibitor.

 

However, I think Chromerust's diet is acceptable as a way of combining feeding. Instead of feeding the honey, chicken and sugar separately, one now only needs to feed the paste. Despite this, my concern is that a better approach would be to feed them large quantities of sugar and protein so that they may choose their food intake according to their needs. When one feeds, the paste, the ants do not have the option of picking protein or sugar so I fear that there might be over or under consumption of sugar or protein. Too much protein and too little carbs is a surefire way to kill off your ants (A. Dussutour and S.J. Simpson ). Of course, I've noted that this recipe has a protein:sugar ratio of about 1:3 so that may be a less of a problem but the issue remains that no specific values are mentioned so any empirical results from the community cannot be compared properly to improve the recipe.

 

In conclusion, this is a perfectly acceptable form of feeding food as long as other foods are provided and that it is not be the staple food for your ants. Not all species consume as large a variety of foods as Solenopsis invicta.


Edited by Etherwulf, February 22 2015 - 5:56 AM.

 

#53 Offline drtrmiller - Posted February 14 2015 - 10:50 PM

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I think you may have inverted the P:C ratio in your analysis, but otherwise, excellent explanations.


Edited by drtrmiller, February 14 2015 - 10:51 PM.



byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#54 Offline Etherwulf - Posted February 14 2015 - 11:06 PM

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Oops, thanks for the heads-up.


 

#55 Offline dspdrew - Posted February 15 2015 - 2:13 AM

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A couple things:

 

Not all hummingbird nectar uses Sodium benzoate as a preservative. Mine for instance uses Potassium sorbate, which is effective at a pH all the way up to 6.5 as seen here.

 

 

drtrmiller, you claimed that honey is only antimicrobial because of it's low water concentration, which is not true.

 

Honey is a well-known antiseptic on account of the fact that is is mostly sugar (fructose) with a small concentration of water, which allows it to act as a liquid.  It is not the fructose or the honey that is antiseptic, but the low water concentration.

 

The bees themselves add the antimicrobial peptide Bee Defensin-1 to the honey as they produce it. It's explained here.

 

Chromerust's mixture might be a little less prone to spoiling as you think.



#56 Offline drtrmiller - Posted February 15 2015 - 3:31 AM

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Glad you did your homework.

 

Please find info on heat stability of peptides.  

 

Most honey, as you likely know, is pasteurized, filtered, and otherwise highly refined.

 

However, even if you use raw honey, you must take into account the honey is being diluted, thus negating the properties of any trace antimicrobials that may be effective in the undiluted form.

 

Ergo, while your argument may have merit on the technicality that there may exist additional preservative properties in raw, unprocessed honey than simply the high sugar/low water content I previously observed, it is but a red herring when you consider that raw honey is not what is at issue here, but how it is used (diluted) in the context of this recipe or application.


Edited by drtrmiller, February 15 2015 - 3:32 AM.



byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#57 Offline Etherwulf - Posted February 15 2015 - 3:38 AM

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A few issues:

 

 

1. No one knows what's the percentage of potassium sorbate in hummingbird nectar and not many people check whether if there's a preservative to begin with. Furthermore, how do you know how much hummingbird nectar is needed to inhibit mold? The general percentage of sodium benzoate or potassium sorbate is at 0.1% or less as mandated by the FDA so when you mix the nectar together with the rest of the ingredients, whatever preservatives that may or may not be in there is clearly no longer sufficient to prevent the growth of microorganisms for the entire mixture. Sorbates in particular are only effective when used in a 0.2% concentration (page 22 of the first link). How is anyone going to know if adding a heaping of nectar is enough for the whole mixture and what is a heaping to begin with? The problem remains, you cannot add more of an ingredient without adding more of another

 

2. Yes, potassium sorbate does work up to 6.5 but that's really the limit and unless your chicken/water/honey/nectar is slightly acidic, it won't work at all. I quote the same article, " Sorbates are at their optimum effectiveness when used below pH 6.0. However, they function up to pH 6.5 but are relatively ineffective at pH 7.0 and above.”  Let us define pH. pH is the concentration of H+ ions. Chicken has a pH at around 6.5 or 6.7. Water is around 6-8.5 based on where you live. The only thing that's going to lower the pH is honey which has a pH of around 3.9 but it can range from 3.4 to 6.1. In conclusion, unless someone goes shopping with a pH indicator, nobody knows if it will mold or not. Most likely it will because my own Green V1 molded badly with nectar and honey. Even with the  preservative potassium benzoateI can post a comparison of mold growth when the subforum is up. So, will it mold? Well, nobody really knows unless they test the mixture's pH which I doubt little will do.

 

In short, yes this mixture may not mold for some people but the results will be different across the board because of the high variability of the ingredients. Not everyone will be using the same nectar, the same chicken, the same honey or even the same water. 

 

I don't think this recipe is bad in and of itself. The problem comes about when people start using this as the staple food for their ants without understanding mold growth, species requirements and general ant nutrition. I still maintain that most ants will likely eat this but perhaps a small note should be added, saying that other foods should be provided and close monitoring of brood production is needed before using it long-term. You don't need to weigh the pupae, just check whether the queen's laying eggs, whether workers are appearing smaller or dying off quicker and any other unusual discrepancies in behaviour.
 

Edit: I fixed a chunk of words disappearing.


Edited by Etherwulf, February 15 2015 - 5:17 AM.

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#58 Offline dspdrew - Posted February 15 2015 - 9:32 AM

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Glad you did your homework.

 

Please find info on heat stability of peptides.  

 

Most honey, as you likely know, is pasteurized, filtered, and otherwise highly refined.

 

However, even if you use raw honey, you must take into account the honey is being diluted, thus negating the properties of any trace antimicrobials that may be effective in the undiluted form.

 

Ergo, while your argument may have merit on the technicality that there may exist additional preservative properties in raw, unprocessed honey than simply the high sugar/low water content I previously observed, it is but a red herring when you consider that raw honey is not what is at issue here, but how it is used (diluted) in the context of this recipe or application.

 

:lol: You were still about as wrong as you could have possibly been in your statement, Terry. BTW, Chromerust and I both use unrefined, organic honey, but either way, I guess it must be magic then how most any honey can sit unrefrigerated on people's shelves for years and never go bad.

 

I really don't care enough about this topic to continue arguing about it. This isn't an area that I have a lot of knowledge in, so I would have to spend a lot more of my time researching everything you guys claim to know if it's even accurate or not, especially after what Terry said about honey only being antimicropbial because of its low water content.

 

Personally, whether ant food will mold or not is really not all that important to me. All I mainly care about is will the ants eat it, and is it good for them, just like anything else people feed their ants. If it molds, then take it out. sure Chromerust's food is obviously not precisely calculated and created in a laboratory by a team of experienced scientists, but you could say the same thing about anything else people commonly feed their ants. Is all of that really necessary? I think the main point of this thread was to show people a convenient and easy way to prepare and serve these common, trusted foods to their ants, which he clearly has done, unless that also was just making him "feel good" about doing it.

 

If you do think you can make the world's most perfect, complete ant food, then great, go for it, but it should probably be discussed in a new thread somewhere else--probably in the new research subforum I agreed to create for you.


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#59 Offline drtrmiller - Posted February 15 2015 - 11:18 AM

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:lol: You were still about as wrong as you could have possibly been in your statement, Terry. BTW, Chromerust and I both use unrefined, organic honey, but either way, I guess it must be magic then how most any honey can sit unrefrigerated on people's shelves for years and never go bad.

 

I really don't care enough about this topic to continue arguing about it. This isn't an area that I have a lot of knowledge in, so I would have to spend a lot more of my time researching everything you guys claim to know if it's even accurate or not, especially after what Terry said about honey only being antimicropbial (sic) because of its low water content.

 

"...bacteria need water to thrive. While many foods contain a good deal of water, honey contains almost none. What little water exists in honey binds to its sugars and enzymes, leaving little for bacterial growth. Unsealed, honey will attract water from the air and eventually ferment." [indianapublicmedia.org]

 

" ...if you add water, you could ruin the honey completely.  That’s because honey, which is a preservative in its original state, ferments once it’s diluted...So because of its high sugar concentration, pure honey will never ferment or go bad...Adding water, however, lowers the concentration of sugar in the honey and turns a natural preservative into an excellent food for yeast and bacteria." [indianapublicmedia.org]

 

"Just like with salt, some forms of sugar can draw water out of food and tie up water within the food so it is not available for biochemical reactions. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization, fructose and sucrose are very effective for preserving food while glucose is not." [liIvestrong.com] 

 

"Bacteria evolved in environments where the concentration of sugars and salts is the same as or lower than those inside the cell. High sugar concentrations cause the bacterium to lose water by osmosis and it doesn't have any cellular machinery to pump it back in against the osmotic gradient. Without enough water, the bacteria can’t grow or divide. Mould is more tolerant though and can grow on some jams." [sciencefocus.com]




byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#60 Offline dspdrew - Posted February 15 2015 - 8:32 PM

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I knew there were some types of bacteria that could end up in honey, but I thought at the same time it was still antimicrobial (which is like any preservative). I actually ended up seeing later what were saying about the water content, but I was gone all day so I didn't post until now. I talked to my friend who's a microbiologist, and she explained it to me. So yes, you are right about the honey. The honey in that research study was actually antimicrobial, but it was made from a specific tree in New Zealand she said. This is why it's a good thing that, like I said in my last post, spoilage is the least of my worries. If there were no preservatives at all, I would still feed them something like this, the same way I would feed them insects, or anything else that's not antimicrobial. Doing it Chromerust's way is just a lot easier.


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