21 replies to this topic

[Jamiesname]

I'm having some really weird things happen with my ants. I'll kick this off with the issue in the title. I have a L. Latipes queen with a huge pile of brood and 30ish host workers. I caught her last September and hibernated her from November to February. One of the pupae seems to have hatched and produced a male alate. You can see him in the upper left of the pic. Doesn't it take a few years for a colony to produce alates?

To save a little back and forth posting, I can assure you that this male wasn't there until today. I checked on these guys literally everyday since I took them out of hibernation because I was so excited to have a successful social parasite colony and wanted to take a pic of the first L. Latipes worker to eclose.

So question number one: Is this normal for a queen in her first stage of colony foundation?

The other issue is related, but has to do with C. Pennsylvanicus. I have a C. Pennsylvanicus queen/colony that is also less than a year old. I caught her sometime last summer. I also took her out of hibernation at the same time as the Latipes colony. She's already producing majors. I have one adult major as you can vaguely see in the other pic, and there's more major larvae and one major pupae in there also.

Question number two: Normal or not? Could there be a correlation here in both of these instances of what I perceive as two colonies being more advanced than they should be for less than a year old.

These are the first queens I've ever kept; I've been at this a little less than a year. Has anyone experienced this before?

Edited by Jamiesname, March 30 2018 - 12:42 PM.

[ZllGGY]

well idk about the male alate the other colony you have could just be a bigger worker (normal size) vs. a 1st generation worker size. i think the production of alates has to do with available resources? also is the alate the first egg she laid?

[Jamiesname]

well idk about the male alate the other colony you have could just be a bigger worker (normal size) vs. a 1st generation worker size. i think the production of alates has to do with available resources? also is the alate the first egg she laid?

I'm not sure about the first egg she laid, it's the first to hatch though. As a matter of fact, the empty cocoon casing is still in the nest.

The C. pennsylvanicus. worker is a major. I know the pic is a little shoddy, but it has the squarish head to go along with its larger size. She has twelve workers, so I honestly don't think it's a difference in size that you'd find between nanitics and better nourished brood.

[LC3]

Did you get that brood from outside separate from the L. latipes queen? Because if so it may have been part of a mature colony. If not and the nest was most likely occupied by a Lasius queen prior sometimes it just happens. If the cocoon is from the L. latipes queen she may be infertile.

 

As for the C. pennsylvanicus I wouldn't call that a major, maybe a median. Colonies will gradually produce larger workers overtime if things go well, this process isn't exactly linear. I believe the primary factors influencing major production is a combination of temperature, food and age.

Edited by LC3, March 30 2018 - 1:05 PM.

[ZllGGY]

could be that she had enough resources to produce a major so i owuldnt be too concerned. as for you parasitic queen she could be infertile and will only produce males which it seems may be the case

[MegaMyrmex]

Agree with LC3. The same happened with me but with a formica social parasite queen-what   looked like worker pupae sprouted  2 female formica alates. As for the camponotus, it seems more like a median worker, I have camponotus chromaiodes colonies that were just beginning to produce medians and I confused them and their pupae for majors.

Edited by MegaMyrmex, March 30 2018 - 1:13 PM.

[123LordOfAnts123]

Was the Lasius provided with boosted brood? Temperate ants, especially Formicinae, normally raise their alates for the year from brood overwintered and laid the previous year; captured larvae/eggs in the late fall could be male but there would be no way to tell until they enclose. Infertile eggs laid for food can also sometimes make it past workers and develop to maturity. Infertility may also be a factor, on rarer occasions I’ve had seemingly healthy founding queens produce males despite having produced workers, indicating at least some degree of fertility. Such colonies normally fail to thrive, however.

As for the major, I agree with LC3. Camponotus colonies often produce their first noticeably polymorphic workers after only a few dozen workers when supplied with abundant food. Despite being regarded as having three distinct castes, (minor, media, major) Camponotus workers display varying sizes between all three.

Edited by 123LordOfAnts123, March 30 2018 - 1:33 PM.

[AnthonyP163]

I agree with LC3. However, how did you start this colony? I am working on a colony with Lasius claviger,  I was wondering how you did it with Lasius latipes.

[Jamiesname]

Oh man you guys. My heart just sunk when I read about being infertile. I hope that's not the case. I've been pumped up over this queen since last September. I guess I'll have to wait for a few more pupae to eclose to know for sure.

[Jamiesname]

I agree with LC3. However, how did you start this colony? I am working on a colony with Lasius claviger,  I was wondering how you did it with Lasius latipes.

http://www.formicult...arasites/page-3

My post on how I did it is about half way down.

[Jamiesname]

Thanks for all the input. It seems that this queen is at the very least semi-fertile. Today a worker L. Latipes enclosed. You can see her by following the link. As of now the pic is in the last post on the thread. We'll see what the next few days produce in regards to workers. I do see one pupae in the pic is quite dark, so it is probably another male getting ready to eclose. Anyways, thanks again guys, and keep your fingers crossed for my L. Latipes colony!

http://www.formicult...ge-4#entry87122

Edited by Jamiesname, April 1 2018 - 4:08 PM.

[nurbs]

In answer to your original question, yes, you can have alates within the first year and the queen can still be fertile. Happened to me twice. You can also have medians or majors within the first year. Have a number of colonies of C. modoc and C. quericola that produced majors (not medians) within their first year.

 

 

 

Check out this huge major within the first 6 months:

 

[Dnail]

Wow !! The first worker can be a male. I am excited. I want it to happen to my colony too (because I want to know how men from polyrhachis look)

[Ants Latvia]

Wow !! The first worker can be a male. I am excited. I want it to happen to my colony too (because I want to know how men from polyrhachis look)

Well - the first worker can be a male in the situation where the queen isn't fertile, and also - rarely, but when she is fertile.

[UberDuber]

I have a Pogonomyrmex colony that produced multiple alates in the first few waves of workers, and they aren't supposed to produce sexuals for years. Now, she is producing workers that are just as big as those first alates and they are doing very well.

 

So while it's definitely uncommon, I don't think you have any cause for concern. All the people I've seen who had an infertile queen had only alates and no regular workers. As long as most of your workers are normal, I think you probably just have a very ambitious young queen

[Jamiesname]

I have a Pogonomyrmex colony that produced multiple alates in the first few waves of workers, and they aren't supposed to produce sexuals for years. Now, she is producing workers that are just as big as those first alates and they are doing very well.
 
So while it's definitely uncommon, I don't think you have any cause for concern. All the people I've seen who had an infertile queen had only alates and no regular workers. As long as most of your workers are normal, I think you probably just have a very ambitious young queen

Thanks for the encouragement. So far she's split - 1 male and 1 worker. There's a pile of pupae, but so far I haven't had anymore eclose. Talk about anticipation! It's killing me lol.

[Zmagz]

 

I have a Pogonomyrmex colony that produced multiple alates in the first few waves of workers, and they aren't supposed to produce sexuals for years. Now, she is producing workers that are just as big as those first alates and they are doing very well.
 
So while it's definitely uncommon, I don't think you have any cause for concern. All the people I've seen who had an infertile queen had only alates and no regular workers. As long as most of your workers are normal, I think you probably just have a very ambitious young queen

Thanks for the encouragement. So far she's split - 1 male and 1 worker. There's a pile of pupae, but so far I haven't had anymore eclose. Talk about anticipation! It's killing me lol.

 

Wait so one of her pupae have already eclosed a worker? If that's so, I think that means she's fertile and the male is just a rare occasion.

Edited by Zmagz, April 8 2018 - 5:16 PM.

[Canadian anter]

I once had a Formica pallidefulva eclose a hermaphrodite

[Jamiesname]

Wait so one of her pupae have already eclosed a worker? If that's so, I think that means she's fertile and the male is just a rare occasion.

Yes, first to eclose was a male a late. The second was a worker. Still waiting on a third.

Edited by Jamiesname, April 14 2018 - 12:24 PM.

[Jamiesname]

Just to give a little update on this colony, no more alates have eclosed. I did, however, have 5 more workers eclose. You can read the details in my journal:


http://www.formicult...atipes/?p=87186