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48 replies to this topic

#21 Offline GeorgeK - Posted February 7 2018 - 4:28 AM

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When it comes to importing laws, Serbia, while not member of EU follows EU laws and regulations, so we should have almost identical laws when it comes to importing. Now, under those very same laws it is forbidden to import ALL animals with exception of bees, silkworms, leeches (for medical purposes) and bugs that are used to exterminate pest insects. So, even if you find exotic species in Europe, it doesnt mean law allows it, it just means it was smuggled illegally (Imagine the trouble of smuggling a test-tube with ants across border, its not elephant).

You also claim that nature in Europe is artificial (?!)

artificial-made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural.

Now, since i live in Europe (in rather "artificial" part of it as you might call it) i can confirm that we have rather rich flora and fauna, and we still have all domestic species of animals (beavers, otters, storks, roe deers, boars,...), so just because you live in huge concrete city doesn`t mean entire Europe is artificial.

 

Seriously, get your [censored] together Serafine


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#22 Offline VoidElecent - Posted February 7 2018 - 9:46 AM

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Don't worry about it, haha. The nature of this topic is inherently controversial at its core; it was bound to happen sooner or later. I would like to keep it relatively on-topic, so maybe we can try to bring it back.

 

Also, I appreciate the Sunny reference.


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#23 Offline T.C. - Posted February 7 2018 - 10:40 AM

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I was just looking at "The Rules of the Internet."  "#25. Relation to the original topic decreases with every single post."  Ain't that the truth.

 

Void, if I manage to recover from my massive ant loss, I'll shoot you a message about this.


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#24 Offline GeorgeK - Posted February 7 2018 - 2:46 PM

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Don't worry about it, haha. The nature of this topic is inherently controversial at its core; it was bound to happen sooner or later. I would like to keep it relatively on-topic, so maybe we can try to bring it back.

 

Also, I appreciate the Sunny reference.

Well i gave you some suggestions in chat so i guess that should be enough to redeem myself at least a little :)


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#25 Online Serafine - Posted February 7 2018 - 2:47 PM

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When it comes to importing laws, Serbia, while not member of EU follows EU laws and regulations, so we should have almost identical laws when it comes to importing. Now, under those very same laws it is forbidden to import ALL animals with exception of bees, silkworms, leeches (for medical purposes) and bugs that are used to exterminate pest insects. So, even if you find exotic species in Europe, it doesnt mean law allows it, it just means it was smuggled illegally (Imagine the trouble of smuggling a test-tube with ants across border, its not elephant).

I can pretty much guarantee you that this is not true, otherwise it'd be impossible for the Antstore webshop to publicly sell Atta cephalotes and Camponotus nicobarensis colonies. Our laws regarding ants are next to nonexistent (we generally only have laws concerning insects that are threatened, but in that aspect they're often so strict that some beetles can delay the construction of a federal state capital's major train station for several years).

 

And yes there are issues with smuggling ants but usually that affects the ants being EXported from their native areas, not them being imported into Germany (a well-known german antshop owner got caught and fined a few years ago for trying to smuggle ants out of Costa Rica, I can't imagine him having trouble sending ants anywhere, in fact I think that's where Jospeh got his Camponotus ligniperda from).
 

You also claim that nature in Europe is artificial (?!)
artificial-made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural.
Now, since i live in Europe (in rather "artificial" part of it as you might call it) i can confirm that we have rather rich flora and fauna, and we still have all domestic species of animals (beavers, otters, storks, roe deers, boars,...), so just because you live in huge concrete city doesn`t mean entire Europe is artificial.
 
Seriously, get your [censored] together Serafine

Apparently you don't understand see how heavily the european landscape has been shaped by human civilization and I can understand that it's hard to realize because it is so utterly all-encompassing. The fact that there's a rich flora and fauna doesn't mean it has grown into that shape naturally.

This is not just affecting city areas - here in Germany you can go to pretty much ANY place in the entire country, even if you're standing in the middle of a forest 20 kilometers away from the next road (which is a difficult thing to achieve in the first place, since we have one of the densest road infrastructures in the world, almost beating the entire US in total road kilometers) everything around you is artificially shaped by millennia of forestry, agriculture and hunting - as an example we've managed to exterminate ALL apex predators like wolves, bears and lynxes (even Vultures have gone extinct and are just in the process of being re-introduced) - they're only slowly coming back now that we stopped to murder them on sight. And it's the same for other central european countries like France or the UK.

Eastern Europe is less affected by this but still heavily shaped by human influence.

 

 

@VoidElecent I found the store page/interface/modules concept I made some time ago and will send it to you once I've put it from paper to a PC format (unfortunately my scanner refused to work). There's also a few general pitfalls to consider that aren't immediately obviously and I will include them as well.


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#26 Offline KBant - Posted February 7 2018 - 3:39 PM

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When it comes to importing laws, Serbia, while not member of EU follows EU laws and regulations, so we should have almost identical laws when it comes to importing. Now, under those very same laws it is forbidden to import ALL animals with exception of bees, silkworms, leeches (for medical purposes) and bugs that are used to exterminate pest insects. So, even if you find exotic species in Europe, it doesnt mean law allows it, it just means it was smuggled illegally (Imagine the trouble of smuggling a test-tube with ants across border, its not elephant).

I can pretty much guarantee you that this is not true, otherwise it'd be impossible for the Antstore webshop to publicly sell Atta cephalotes and Camponotus nicobarensis colonies. Our laws regarding ants are next to nonexistent (we generally only have laws concerning insects that are threatened, but in that aspect they're often so strict that some beetles can delay the construction of a federal state capital's major train station for several years).

And yes there are issues with smuggling ants but usually that affects the ants being EXported from their native areas, not them being imported into Germany (a well-known german antshop owner got caught and fined a few years ago for trying to smuggle ants out of Costa Rica, I can't imagine him having trouble sending ants anywhere, in fact I think that's where Jospeh got his Camponotus ligniperda from).

You also claim that nature in Europe is artificial (?!)
artificial-made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, especially as a copy of something natural.
Now, since i live in Europe (in rather "artificial" part of it as you might call it) i can confirm that we have rather rich flora and fauna, and we still have all domestic species of animals (beavers, otters, storks, roe deers, boars,...), so just because you live in huge concrete city doesn`t mean entire Europe is artificial.

Seriously, get your [censored] together Serafine

Apparently you don't understand see how heavily the european landscape has been shaped by human civilization and I can understand that it's hard to realize because it is so utterly all-encompassing. The fact that there's a rich flora and fauna doesn't mean it has grown into that shape naturally.
This is not just affecting city areas - here in Germany you can go to pretty much ANY place in the entire country, even if you're standing in the middle of a forest 20 kilometers away from the next road (which is a difficult thing to achieve in the first place, since we have one of the densest road infrastructures in the world, almost beating the entire US in total road kilometers) everything around you is artificially shaped by millennia of forestry, agriculture and hunting - as an example we've managed to exterminate ALL apex predators like wolves, bears and lynxes (even Vultures have gone extinct and are just in the process of being re-introduced) - they're only slowly coming back now that we stopped to murder them on sight. And it's the same for other central european countries like France or the UK.
Eastern Europe is less affected by this but still heavily shaped by human influence.


@VoidElecent I found the store page/interface/modules concept I made some time ago and will send it to you once I've put it from paper to a PC format (unfortunately my scanner refused to work). There's also a few general pitfalls to consider that aren't immediately obviously and I will include them as well.
Serafine, bro how old are you? I really want to know.


You go off on so many tangents and can barely stay on topic. From talking about ants to birds and dogs. Now forests to roads and then length of road compared to the United States. Why do you bother sharing such useless information. You’re typing for the sake of typing. There is no word requirement for posts, simply post what you’re trying to say and avoid the extra fluff you keep throwing in. Also how old are you?

Edited by KBant, February 7 2018 - 3:42 PM.

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#27 Offline nurbs - Posted February 7 2018 - 11:56 PM

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You go off on so many tangents and can barely stay on topic. From talking about ants to birds and dogs. Now forests to roads and then length of road compared to the United States. Why do you bother sharing such useless information. You’re typing for the sake of typing. There is no word requirement for posts, simply post what you’re trying to say and avoid the extra fluff you keep throwing in. Also how old are you?

 

 

When he brought up parrots and parakeets, I lost it. Almost fell out of my chair.

 

In yet another GAN related tirade sometime back, he managed to segway into giving opinionated comments on our political system and Trump. So whether he's underage or not, its disconcerting either way.

 

He could also be some 18 year old kid sitting in his parent's basement in Tennessee using a VPN client to connect to Formiculture via Germany, trolling all of us. That would at least explain something.


Edited by nurbs, February 7 2018 - 11:58 PM.

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#28 Offline Reacker - Posted February 8 2018 - 12:46 AM

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"Do you see any of us from the US hang out in European or German ant forums, policing them, enforcing our views, lecturing them about the environment, and constantly shaming them with border laws? No."

 

That's because most of us only speak English though...

 

"You go off on so many tangents and can barely stay on topic. From talking about ants to birds and dogs. Now forests to roads and then length of road compared to the United States. Why do you bother sharing such useless information. You’re typing for the sake of typing. There is no word requirement for posts, simply post what you’re trying to say and avoid the extra fluff you keep throwing in. Also how old are you?"

 

I feel like you're purposefully trying to ignore the point he's making. He's using the forests and road length example as a demonstration of how fully artificial the German landscape is, and in that sense it's 100% on topic. While his argument is nonsense, like generally most of what he says on these forums, it doesn't accomplish anything to purposefully misunderstand the point he is trying to make just because you want to find a way to dismiss him.


Edited by Reacker, February 8 2018 - 12:50 AM.

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#29 Offline KBant - Posted February 8 2018 - 2:15 AM

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"Do you see any of us from the US hang out in European or German ant forums, policing them, enforcing our views, lecturing them about the environment, and constantly shaming them with border laws? No."
 
That's because most of us only speak English though...
 

"You go off on so many tangents and can barely stay on topic. From talking about ants to birds and dogs. Now forests to roads and then length of road compared to the United States. Why do you bother sharing such useless information. You’re typing for the sake of typing. There is no word requirement for posts, simply post what you’re trying to say and avoid the extra fluff you keep throwing in. Also how old are you?"
 
I feel like you're purposefully trying to ignore the point he's making. He's using the forests and road length example as a demonstration of how fully artificial the German landscape is, and in that sense it's 100% on topic. While his argument is nonsense, like generally most of what he says on these forums, it doesn't accomplish anything to purposefully misunderstand the point he is trying to make just because you want to find a way to dismiss him.


The point is that serafine makes opinionated nonsense statements on topics he has no experience in or familiarity with. I’m not saying he shouldn’t be in the forums, rather just speak when he truly has knowledge on the subject at hand. Why are many of us not in the EU forums? Because the people In there most likely don’t keep the same ants we do. If I was in a eu forum and someone asked a question about messor barbarus, would it make sense for me be responding? No. Not really because I’ve only seen them in a YouTube video and have no experience with them.

You may have been able to vaguely make his off-topic comments relate to the other nonsense he speaks but there are far more examples where he speaks just plain ole bs.

#30 Offline nurbs - Posted February 8 2018 - 2:25 AM

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"Do you see any of us from the US hang out in European or German ant forums, policing them, enforcing our views, lecturing them about the environment, and constantly shaming them with border laws? No."

 

That's because most of us only speak English though...

 

 

Wait, what? You're saying if you spoke perfect German but have never set foot in Germany or Europe, you would do exactly that? 

 

English is taught in school as a common second language in much of Europe. I've met people in Switzerland who spoken better English than me. But then again, English is my second language. In Europe, there's also the UK. Dunno if you've heard, but they talk and spell a lot like us, except everyone sounds like Harry Potter.

 

 

I feel like you're purposefully trying to ignore the point he's making. He's using the forests and road length example as a demonstration of how fully artificial the German landscape is, and in that sense it's 100% on topic. While his argument is nonsense, like generally most of what he says on these forums, it doesn't accomplish anything to purposefully misunderstand the point he is trying to make just because you want to find a way to dismiss him

 

Yes, think KBant was purposely dimissing him. Under normal circumstances, that could even be considered rude. But this isn't normal circumstances. Forum users, both old and new, have had to read his nonsense mostly unchecked since the beginning of last year. Please, don't encourage him further.


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#31 Offline AnthonyP163 - Posted February 8 2018 - 4:50 AM

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"Do you see any of us from the US hang out in European or German ant forums, policing them, enforcing our views, lecturing them about the environment, and constantly shaming them with border laws? No."

 

That's because most of us only speak English though...

 

 

Wait, what? You're saying if you spoke perfect German but have never set foot in Germany or Europe, you would do exactly that? 

 

English is taught in school as a common second language in much of Europe. I've met people in Switzerland who spoken better English than me. But then again, English is my second language. In Europe, there's also the UK. Dunno if you've heard, but they talk and spell a lot like us, except everyone sounds like Harry Potter.

 

 

I feel like you're purposefully trying to ignore the point he's making. He's using the forests and road length example as a demonstration of how fully artificial the German landscape is, and in that sense it's 100% on topic. While his argument is nonsense, like generally most of what he says on these forums, it doesn't accomplish anything to purposefully misunderstand the point he is trying to make just because you want to find a way to dismiss him

 

Yes, think KBant was purposely dimissing him. Under normal circumstances, that could even be considered rude. But this isn't normal circumstances. Forum users, both old and new, have had to read his nonsense mostly unchecked since the beginning of last year. Please, don't encourage him further.

 

I think that to call his opinions and arguments "nonsense" is really not being fair. He can put in his opinion, and if you want to disagree then disagree. But if you had told me your opinion on a certain topic, something political or not politcal, I would not go around calling your posts "nonsense" I would respect your opinion, but still disagree if I feel differently. If you think his opinion, or even facts that he says, are "nonsense" or untrue, then call him out on it. But please respect others opinions as you want yours to be.

 

You have said sorry for ruining his topic, yet continue to make posts irrelevant to the actual discussion intended for this thread. Let's end this now.



#32 Offline GeorgeK - Posted February 8 2018 - 6:59 AM

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This thread should be moved to sandbox and Void should probably make new one



#33 Online Serafine - Posted February 8 2018 - 7:31 AM

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Serafine, bro how old are you? I really want to know.

My age is none of your business but judging by the age average of the english-speaking antkeeping community it is likely that I'm twice as old as you are.

 

When he brought up parrots and parakeets, I lost it. Almost fell out of my chair.

I brought up parrots and parakeets as an example that I'm absolutely NOT okay with the laws my country has regarding animals.
I did so because YOU implied that I am solely responsible for my country's laws and would appreciate them in every way which is just not true. In fact most of Germany's laws concerning animals are pretty terrible (except about those animals that are actually protected where they are extremely strict).
 

He's using the forests and road length example as a demonstration of how fully artificial the German landscape is, and in that sense it's 100% on topic.

Exactly - many people seem to think that when they stand in the middle of a german wood and can't see the next road or concrete block house that what they're looking at is actually nature when it is NOT. In fact every central european wood is nothing but a huge tree garden tailored and tended to by an army of foresters, hunters, woodcutters and other related staff.

Central Europe doesn't have any national parks that have been unscathed by human activity for millennia and are actually worth protecting, there's nothing left worth to protect in central europe that isn't an artificial or cultural construct in the first place.

 

I feel like you're purposefully trying to ignore the point he's making.

That's nothing new. It's pretty much the same with every discussion touching any unpleasant topic related to antkeeping.

 

There are some people that are immediately triggered by any discussion about the problematic sides of antkeeping, especially when it involves any criticism of GAN or AC. GAN is selling invasive ants potentially breaking laws in the process? That's none of your business, how dare you criticize them when your country has a FREE PASS regarding exotic ants (because obviously a country's laws are the fault of everyone living in it). AC making a video showing half a million underaged kids that it's okay to dump (mite-infected) invasive ants into their garden when they can't be bothered to care for them anymore? Not so bad, also this forum isn't the right place to talk about it. If a forum dedicated to antkeeping in all it's shape and forms isn't the right place to talk about it, what place is?

And to be clear, I (and probably several others as could be seen in the discussion surrounding the Pharao ant video) would have never gone so ballistic towards GAN if the AC staff hadn't been constantly bragging so hard about the moral high ground they see themselves floating on, even outright insulting all keepers of exotic ants in a video not too long ago by diving the antkeeping community into team native ants (which are supposed to be the good guys) and the (bad bad) team exotic ants.

That's preaching water while drinking whine (actually after that Pharao ant thing it's probably more like drinking naval rum) and you shouldn't be surprised to be called out if you can't stand up to your own standards.

 

 

In fact this rising culture of denial has lead to a growing split in the antkeeping community with a vast amount of users from the Antkeeping Discord participating less and less in Formiculture discussions, slowly turning the forum into an echo chamber for those who are denying any problematic sides of antkeeping.

For a good part of the more adult antkeeping community AC has lost it's moral credibility, I can only hope the Formiculture community doesn't go the same way.

 

p.s. There also seems to be a strange schizophrenia when it comes to the value of experience where people claim others shouldn't participate in any discussion beyond their local area due "lack of personal experience" yet the same people have shouted down Terry in the discussion about Sunburst, a product he has spent years to develop, test and refine "because every antkeeper with a working brain can achieve the same by just dumping some sodium benzoate powder in a cup of sugar water". Apparently personal experience is only required when talking about a subject certain people do not want to talk about.

 

 


Do you see any of us from the US hang out in European or German ant forums [...]

Maybe you should. You'd probably be surprised how the strong the tendency towards keeping native ants (or at least ants from Europe) actually is despite people having a FREE PASS that theoretically allows them to keep ants from any place in the world. In fact ants that are not from Europe are still a clear minority, most popular are species from southern Europe due to their hibernation habits (and the fact that there are few harvester ant species in central europe, I think the rare Messor structor is the only one) as well as the omni-pesent Lasius niger/flavus and Formica fusca.

Also the age average of the european/german antkeeping community is probably around twice as high (something around 25-35 years) as the age average in the english-speaking antkeeping community which makes for a very noticeable difference in almost every aspect.

 

 

 

Finally, to rail back onto topic, I think it's an important part of this project to consider it's stance on which ants to sell when it comes to sales outside of the US. You can either copy local law (which means people from Europe could put up any species of ant except those that are actually protected), go for an extremely strict stance (only native ants that have been caught locally can be sold to only people from that same country) or try to find a reasonable middle ground (like allowing ants from the same continent only and also avoid species that could potentially be invasive pest, like Argentine ants and Solenopsis invicta/geminata fire ants, despite the laws would actually allow for sales of those). Whatever stance you choose though, you'll have to keep to it.

 

And again, if want to be successful at any place outside of North America (where there essentially is no competition) pretty much the only way you can achieve that is by absolute transparency to assure that customers get only best quality ants, because this transparency is the only thing that traditional ant shops cannot offer. In the end your "store"/trading page would probably look and feel more like the web presence of an animal adoption center but as far as I'm informed that was the plan anyway.


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#34 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted February 8 2018 - 8:57 AM

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He could also be some 18 year old kid sitting in his parent's basement in Tennessee using a VPN client to connect to Formiculture via Germany, trolling all of us. That would at least explain something.

 

Why Tennessee? :ugone2far: ;)


Edited by TennesseeAnts, February 8 2018 - 8:57 AM.

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                                         Keeper Of
 
     1 Huge Formica pallidefulva Colony (The Abdo-Lemons)
 
       1 Crematogaster asmeadi Colony That's Full of Personality (The Valentines)
                                                              That likes to escape
       2 Carpenter Ant Colonies (chromaiodes and castaneus)
 
       1 Aphaenogaster lamellidens Colony (The Moss Monsters)

               

       1 Strumigenys colony 

 

       

Still looking to collect a Stigmatomma pallipes colony

 

       


#35 Offline T.C. - Posted February 8 2018 - 4:17 PM

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Serafine, that you?


It doesn't get better than this. :lol:
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#36 Offline Reacker - Posted February 8 2018 - 4:20 PM

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You have said sorry for ruining his topic, yet continue to make posts irrelevant to the actual discussion intended for this thread. Let's end this now.

 

That wasn't me.



#37 Offline Canadian anter - Posted February 8 2018 - 8:03 PM

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Personally, I just think that these conversations are getting way too repetitive and we should all just take a break from clogging this forum. Sorry for my input 

 

Also, VoidElecent, this is just a suggestion but I would like it if you had some sort of ID system going. I remember a good while back when a GAN farmer near me misidentified Lasius as Camponotus (Don't ask, I don't know how they misidentified like that)


Edited by Canadian anter, February 8 2018 - 8:03 PM.

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#38 Offline Barristan - Posted February 9 2018 - 12:14 PM

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Serafine you keep Camponotus barbaricus which is an ant species not native to Germany and yet you complain about ant keepers living far away from Germany who are in your opinion irresponsible. If you really believe all the [censored] about the high risk of exotic ants (which I don't), then kill your ant colony since according to your ideology it is far too dangerous to keep in Germany as it might become invasive.

 

And even if I would be against keeping exotic ants, why should I care what people far away do? It's not like they are selling nukes to North Korea or making a living from dealing with Cocaine or whatever.

 

Greetings from Germany


Edited by Barristan, February 9 2018 - 12:18 PM.

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#39 Online Serafine - Posted February 10 2018 - 12:10 PM

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Did you even read my posts in this topic or ANY of my posts on this subject at all (or how I got my colony, it's explained in my journal and was mentioned at several other occasions - and don't tell me you expect ants from Andalusia to become invasive in an area that goes down to -35°C during the winter)?
If you had read ANY of my comments on this matter you'd know that I'm not caught in the black and white world many people love to live in. I repeatedly made clear that I am NOT against the keeping of non-native ants in general (unless they're well-known problematic pest species) nor am I for the FREE PASS some people apparently crave for (seriously, people do not need to keep ants from the other end of the world which are often caught under dubious circumstances and smuggled out of their origin countries in utterly inadequate setups by the thousands with half of them dying during transport).
 
What I do have a problem with though is a marketplace constantly bragging about the moral high ground it is supposed to float on but at the same time sells extremely destructive invasive ant species and can't even enforce it's own rules.
And I'm even willing to give Mikey and the AC staff the benefit of the doubt in that they simply did not realize how the GAN marketplace spiraled out of control, but that only makes things worse because it means that NONE of the extremely vocal and super defensive GAN farmers and fans who have commented on this topic could be bothered to point the AC staff at the outrageous glaring issues GAN had before the whole affair exploded into a major PR disaster. If they are so devoted to this project you might think they'd actually cared enough about it to make sure it doesn't descent into a chaotic mess with people violating it's rules on a regular basis (and potentially even violating the law which, no matter if the law makes sense or not, is never a good thing). After all, it'd be in their own interest to have a trustworthy foundation for their sales.
 
And yes, I agree that GAN has become a lot better - I'm delighted that they got their stuff together, banned invicta sales, sorted out all flawed entries (colonies without workers, unidentified ants, ants kept in inappropriate setups like glass bottles) and are now actually capable of sticking to their own rules - which is enough for me.

GAN still could be so much more though if given a proper technical infrastructure and the attention such a good idea deserves.


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#40 Offline drtrmiller - Posted February 10 2018 - 12:18 PM

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Can someone with more time than me please do a quick word count (non-repeating) of the now 10+ essay-length replies in this increasingly yarning thread? What a laughable figure it must be.
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