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Over hunting?


98 replies to this topic

#81 Offline ultraex2 - Posted September 25 2017 - 2:05 PM

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Perhaps I am mistaken but I believe that our very own gcsnelling posting in this thread telling you not to release ants is a Myrmecologist. I suspect batspiderfish may be as well though I don't know for sure. 

 

Speaking of self-serving justifications, thank you for demonstrating exactly my point by citing that antscanada advertising page as though it is in anyway authoritative. 

 

I'm pretty sure I trust the word of Antscanada more than yours, not sure why you think your opinion is worth more than his?  

 

At any rate, this whole debate ended up just boiling down to the following:

 

Person against releasing:  "You shouldn't because you can give wild ants diseases."

People for releasing:  "You don't have any evidence to support that."

Person against releasing:  "Well, it happens to animals.  Look at this study!"

Person for releasing:  "But that's not an insect.  That doesn't prove anything in this argument."

Person against releasing:  "Well you're just irresponsible and I can't even believe you'd take a risk like that."

 

Basically, we're just asking for proof - and then when no one comes up with any proof and we don't change our views you guys are just ridiculing us because "it should be common sense"... pretty ridiculous.  Just because you think something and are able to justify it with your own head canon doesn't mean you're right.

 

 

If you're not willing to understand that we can look at examples with other types of animals and desire to prevent the same thing happening with ants by applying sensible precautions then there's no point in trying to convince you. 

 

I look forward to the day when some antkeeper somewhere does something stupid enough to attract enough legal attention to cause regulations to be put into place that significantly restrict the freedom of people to keep ants because at least then there will be something to check the torrent of careless stupidity that the hobby produces. 

 

 

Except for the fact that insects are completely different from other animals like turtles, seas horses, etc.  I completely understand we can model certain things based off of other things, a great example being lab mice and people.  The issue is that you can't compare insects to other animals and use them as a good model against each other.  It's not sensible to compare the two and believe they'll have the same consequences.  If you can provide an example of this happening to another insect species, then you have some ground to stand on but otherwise you don't have any relevant proof for me to agree with your statement.

 

If you can justify why you think turtles, sea horses, etc. are a good model to compare against ants or insects in general, then I'm all ears.



#82 Offline Serafine - Posted September 25 2017 - 2:40 PM

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Well, one example would be the Varroa mite that is currently decimating honey bees all across the world literally driving them into extinction.

The mites are infected with a virus that causes colony collapse and can wipe out an entire colony within a year. However we are talking about COMMERCIAL BEE FARMING here with MASSIVE volumes of bees that were distributed across the world by commercial trade (since the 60s) combined with a danger that was only recognized after several decades of uncontrolled spread - the US honey bee industry made things even worse by driving their infected bee hives through the country in large circles EVERY YEAR while at the same time exposing native bees to massive amounts of pesticides.

So I wouldn't exactly call this a perfect example but it is one where the -massive commercial- trade and transfer of insects allowed a parasite to spread to an extend that it is now about to wipe most bee species out of existence.

 

However it has NOTHING to do with keeping and releasing native species as the mites were imported from Asia, so unless you release exotic ants (something hopefully nobody is stupid enough to do) anything like this won't happen.


Edited by Serafine, October 10 2017 - 6:39 AM.

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#83 Offline JackPearl - Posted October 12 2017 - 2:26 AM

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Ok, I've read this all, and look. What batspiderfish said about releasing makes Sense.
But I've got a genuine question, say you catch a non-invasive ant species native to your area, and it gets too big, you've kept it for say, 3-4 years and it's becoming too much to manage. Besides the obvious lower temperature and decrease feeding, what else can you do to maintain control of the situation and not have to result to releasing?

#84 Offline Batspiderfish - Posted October 12 2017 - 5:30 AM

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Ok, I've read this all, and look. What batspiderfish said about releasing makes Sense.
But I've got a genuine question, say you catch a non-invasive ant species native to your area, and it gets too big, you've kept it for say, 3-4 years and it's becoming too much to manage. Besides the obvious lower temperature and decrease feeding, what else can you do to maintain control of the situation and not have to result to releasing?

 

You give the colony to somebody else or humanely destroy it (else a portion of the workers), which is the same unfortunate dichotomy for a dog or cat. You always need to plan ahead to ensure that an animal you've taken into your life is properly cared for when releasing it is not a viable option.


Edited by Batspiderfish, October 12 2017 - 5:31 AM.

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If you've enjoyed using my expertise and identifications, please do not create undue ecological risk by releasing your ants. The environment which we keep our pet insects is alien and oftentimes unsanitary, so ensure that wild populations stay safe by giving your ants the best care you can manage for the rest of their lives, as we must do with any other pet.

 

Exotic ants are for those who think that vibrant diversity is something you need to pay money to see. It is illegal to transport live ants across state lines.

 

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#85 Offline JackPearl - Posted October 12 2017 - 11:40 AM

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Ok, I've read this all, and look. What batspiderfish said about releasing makes Sense.
But I've got a genuine question, say you catch a non-invasive ant species native to your area, and it gets too big, you've kept it for say, 3-4 years and it's becoming too much to manage. Besides the obvious lower temperature and decrease feeding, what else can you do to maintain control of the situation and not have to result to releasing?

 
You give the colony to somebody else or humanely destroy it (else a portion of the workers), which is the same unfortunate dichotomy for a dog or cat. You always need to plan ahead to ensure that an animal you've taken into your life is properly cared for when releasing it is not a viable option.

Wow, ok. That's a little grim! I think the humanely destroy them would be a last resort. Thanks for replying though.

#86 Offline Barristan - Posted Yesterday, 8:39 AM

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That's overhunting:

2017-10-22.png

 

Collecting 20 queens isn't...


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#87 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted Yesterday, 4:01 PM

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That's overhunting:

2017-10-22.png

 

Collecting 20 queens isn't...

O wow, that is just wrong.... (n)


My journal: 

http://www.formicult...pdated-9182017/

 

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http://www.formicult...-smithi-colony/

 


#88 Offline Phoenix - Posted Yesterday, 10:51 PM

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That's overhunting:

2017-10-22.png

 

Collecting 20 queens isn't...

Holy Christ.



#89 Offline GeorgeK - Posted Today, 6:33 AM

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That's overhunting:

2017-10-22.png

 

Collecting 20 queens isn't...

Wow. How does one even find that many queens?



#90 Offline gcsnelling - Posted Today, 2:39 PM

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My guess is that they dug them out of colonies, if that is the case they are likely not even fertilized and whoever bought them was getting ripped off.



#91 Offline Connectimyrmex - Posted Today, 2:49 PM

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I obviously didn't read the whole thread, but here's my opinion on sustainable hunting.
I believe that collectors should only collect one or two native ant/wasp/termite/bee/whatever reproductives at a time, to give the wild population their best chance of survival. If the species is invasive, go ahead and catch the entire area's population! Just don't release them...


Edited by Connectimyrmex, Today, 2:49 PM.

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#92 Offline Connectimyrmex - Posted Today, 2:51 PM

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That's overhunting:

2017-10-22.png

 

Collecting 20 queens isn't...

Wow. How does one even find that many queens?

 

Woah.. That's pretty crazy. I wonder how long it took for that person to catch all of those. Maybe... since the first appearance of the genus Messor on the face on this earth?

And what kind of person buys all of those? Probably someone who has no life (like me! :P


Edited by Connectimyrmex, Today, 2:52 PM.

Hawaiiant (Ben)

Keeper of
Miniature Labradoodle
Baby Wolf Spider
Mud Dauber wasp larvae
Ochetellus Glaber
Solenopsis Geminata
Brachymyrmex Obscurior
Cardiocondyla Emeryi
Tetramorium Bicarinatum
Plagiolepis Alluaudi
Anoplolepis Gracilipes
Technomyrmex Difficilis
Pheidole Megacephala
Aholehole fish
Cowrie snail
Sea Fan Worm
100+ sea squirts
Tree seedlings
Ghost Crab
Day Gecko
Small Fat Centipede
Endemic Lacewing larva
Vernal Pool shrimps

#93 Offline Salmon - Posted Today, 4:02 PM

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I obviously didn't read the whole thread, but here's my opinion on sustainable hunting.
I believe that collectors should only collect one or two native ant/wasp/termite/bee/whatever reproductives at a time, to give the wild population their best chance of survival. If the species is invasive, go ahead and catch the entire area's population! Just don't release them...

Eh. Restricting yourself to one or two is definitely going overboard, especially since some species have a low survival rate in captivity. No matter how rare an ant species is, for every queen you see there are hundreds in the area that have already disappeared into the ground and hundreds more that have been devoured by predators. If you walk into a field where a nuptial flight is going on to catch 20 queens, you might scare away a bird that would otherwise have eaten 40 of them. 



#94 Offline Connectimyrmex - Posted Today, 4:23 PM

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I obviously didn't read the whole thread, but here's my opinion on sustainable hunting.
I believe that collectors should only collect one or two native ant/wasp/termite/bee/whatever reproductives at a time, to give the wild population their best chance of survival. If the species is invasive, go ahead and catch the entire area's population! Just don't release them...

Eh. Restricting yourself to one or two is definitely going overboard, especially since some species have a low survival rate in captivity. No matter how rare an ant species is, for every queen you see there are hundreds in the area that have already disappeared into the ground and hundreds more that have been devoured by predators. If you walk into a field where a nuptial flight is going on to catch 20 queens, you might scare away a bird that would otherwise have eaten 40 of them. 

 

I like giving the wild queens the highest chances of survival :)
I have to admit, though, I do catch tons of queens if I haven't seen the species before.


Hawaiiant (Ben)

Keeper of
Miniature Labradoodle
Baby Wolf Spider
Mud Dauber wasp larvae
Ochetellus Glaber
Solenopsis Geminata
Brachymyrmex Obscurior
Cardiocondyla Emeryi
Tetramorium Bicarinatum
Plagiolepis Alluaudi
Anoplolepis Gracilipes
Technomyrmex Difficilis
Pheidole Megacephala
Aholehole fish
Cowrie snail
Sea Fan Worm
100+ sea squirts
Tree seedlings
Ghost Crab
Day Gecko
Small Fat Centipede
Endemic Lacewing larva
Vernal Pool shrimps

#95 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted Today, 4:41 PM

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I obviously didn't read the whole thread, but here's my opinion on sustainable hunting.
I believe that collectors should only collect one or two native ant/wasp/termite/bee/whatever reproductives at a time, to give the wild population their best chance of survival. If the species is invasive, go ahead and catch the entire area's population! Just don't release them...

Eh. Restricting yourself to one or two is definitely going overboard, especially since some species have a low survival rate in captivity. No matter how rare an ant species is, for every queen you see there are hundreds in the area that have already disappeared into the ground and hundreds more that have been devoured by predators. If you walk into a field where a nuptial flight is going on to catch 20 queens, you might scare away a bird that would otherwise have eaten 40 of them. 

 

I personally don't see why someone would catch more than one or two. It might just be my experience with it, but just about every queen I catch has been successful, I only caught one F.subsericea queen and now I have a flourishing colony, that is how it has always been for me.


My journal: 

http://www.formicult...pdated-9182017/

 

Experimental Crematogaster smithi journal:

http://www.formicult...-smithi-colony/

 


#96 Offline Connectimyrmex - Posted Today, 5:19 PM

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The funny thing is the only queens that failed under my care are my F. subseriscea queens.


Hawaiiant (Ben)

Keeper of
Miniature Labradoodle
Baby Wolf Spider
Mud Dauber wasp larvae
Ochetellus Glaber
Solenopsis Geminata
Brachymyrmex Obscurior
Cardiocondyla Emeryi
Tetramorium Bicarinatum
Plagiolepis Alluaudi
Anoplolepis Gracilipes
Technomyrmex Difficilis
Pheidole Megacephala
Aholehole fish
Cowrie snail
Sea Fan Worm
100+ sea squirts
Tree seedlings
Ghost Crab
Day Gecko
Small Fat Centipede
Endemic Lacewing larva
Vernal Pool shrimps

#97 Offline TennesseeAnts - Posted Today, 5:23 PM

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The funny thing is the only queens that failed under my care are my F. subseriscea queens.

really!? In what way, were they infertile or did they die, or both?


Edited by TennesseeAnts, Today, 5:23 PM.

My journal: 

http://www.formicult...pdated-9182017/

 

Experimental Crematogaster smithi journal:

http://www.formicult...-smithi-colony/

 


#98 Offline Connectimyrmex - Posted Today, 7:20 PM

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Nah, they just ate their pupae. I still have them, its just they are refusing to lay :(


Hawaiiant (Ben)

Keeper of
Miniature Labradoodle
Baby Wolf Spider
Mud Dauber wasp larvae
Ochetellus Glaber
Solenopsis Geminata
Brachymyrmex Obscurior
Cardiocondyla Emeryi
Tetramorium Bicarinatum
Plagiolepis Alluaudi
Anoplolepis Gracilipes
Technomyrmex Difficilis
Pheidole Megacephala
Aholehole fish
Cowrie snail
Sea Fan Worm
100+ sea squirts
Tree seedlings
Ghost Crab
Day Gecko
Small Fat Centipede
Endemic Lacewing larva
Vernal Pool shrimps

#99 Offline MrILoveTheAnts - Posted Today, 7:57 PM

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Due to an order being canceled .... Who's ordering ant queens by the Bucket!?






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