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Sealing a Nest

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33 replies to this topic

#1 Offline SuperFrank - Posted September 11 2018 - 3:12 AM

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I am wondering if anyone has any advice for how to seal up a hydrostone nest. I am concerned about using Tompson's Waterseal or most other solvent based sealants or even outdoor paints due to the voc's. It obviously has to be quite water resistent as the material will be continually damp, silicone also doesnt work as it doesnt actually bond to the surface. Ime water will seep out of the material and actually pool between it and the silicone. I am considering sealing it with beeswax (possibly diluted with a solvent) however i am also concerned about the sealant penetrating too far into the material and eliminating its water carrying properties. The material i use has a higher cement content and also includes fine sand for structure, but its still quite porous and readily absorbs water. Ideally i would use something like an epoxy or maybe a latex paint, the nests are cast from detailed model terrain molds so i would like to preserve the finish as much as possible. Here are some pics of one of them.

 

 



#2 Offline ANTdrew - Posted September 11 2018 - 8:03 AM

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Those are so cool looking. Where did you get the molds?


"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#3 Offline Barristan - Posted September 11 2018 - 9:24 AM

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This video if unfortunately in German but maybe it still helps. He used epoxy resin (a special one for terrarium/aquarium) to seal the tile cement and after that he added peat for a more natural look.


Edited by Barristan, September 11 2018 - 9:26 AM.

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#4 Offline DaveJay - Posted September 11 2018 - 9:49 AM

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There are lots of videos on making backgrounds for vivariums, perhaps look at some of the tips on them, they usually involve coating Styrofoam with grout or similar then painting and sealing it.
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#5 Offline ANTdrew - Posted September 12 2018 - 5:31 AM

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Just wondering, could some kind of melted candle wax be applied to the outside? Bee's wax would be 100% natural. I'm not sure how it would look.


"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#6 Offline SuperFrank - Posted September 12 2018 - 5:58 AM

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Those are so cool looking. Where did you get the molds?


https://www.amazon.c...WYPF0ET2TD1WBCD

This is the company I use, I have a few different molds, I really like how they look. And I was also considering beeswax, but am worried about it possibly penetrating too far? I'm definitely going to experiment with it

#7 Offline ANTdrew - Posted September 12 2018 - 7:04 AM

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Thanks! What if you applied it hot then quickly popped it in the fridge to cool?


"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#8 Offline ANTdrew - Posted October 4 2018 - 6:40 AM

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I was wondering what you figured out for this? How are the nests working out?

I'm trying to do a similar all in one nest with firebrick, so I need to figure out how to seal mine as well now.


"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#9 Offline Trythis22 - Posted October 4 2018 - 5:55 PM

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ANTdrew,

 

There are plenty of ways to seal a hole. No one "right" answer, I'll list the ways that I can come up with off the top of my head. Not a comprehensive list. 

  • Stuffing a cotton ball(s) in it would be the cheapest and easiest method for all ant keepers. If you want to paint over it, just glue a colored piece of paper over the sealed hole. 

  • If you are trying to achieve a chemical bond, grout is a cheap and popular alternative, which Dave already mentioned. Not a serious thought, but you could probably scoop up some clay if you're located in the right environment, wet it, slather it over the hole and let it dry? 

  • Sealants such as caulk and silicone. There are dozens of types of each product, each designed to specialize in a specific area. It'd be best to invest in a caulking gun and get a non-shrink version of whatever product you decide to use if you go this route. The caulking gun is a cheap and very worthwhile investment if you plan on doing anything more than micro-scale creation. Expanding foam is another alternative but I'm probably gonna get lynched by the chemical-free mob if I go on any further with that so that's that. 

  • Putties and spackling. Once again, lots to choose from but almost all the options will serve your purpose. Plumbers putty is designed to be applied in wet environments, you may want to get a matching color for your nest so you're not making a mess trying to paint it. Spackling can be painted over once hardened. 

  • Epoxy. With the epoxy, I highly recommend getting a filler product. Usually this means the ratio of resin to catalyst is higher, such as 1 part resin to 1 part catalyst. Stronger versions (not always) have something like 10 parts resin to 1 part catalyst. The weakest epoxy is more than strong enough for this application, so get the 1 to 1 ratio epoxy. That stuff is a bit runny, a well known trick with people who use a lot of epoxy is to thicken the mix with baby powder. This allows it to become a bit more viscous so you can apply it on vertical surfaces without anything dripping. Feather it out with sandpaper or a grinder, then paint over it. Marine grade epoxy is waterproof. Epoxy polyurethane is a type of paint that can seal holes, but if you can do a better job with another product...

  • If you want to go all out, get some epoxy resin and some chopped strand mat. This is how you make fiberglass. Provide some backing, doesn't have to be tight. Cut the mat a bit larger than the hole, lay it down. Mix your resin, roll it over the mat with the rolling tool (I forget what it's called) to squeeze out the air bubbles. Feather and sand, paint. This will get you the highest quality seal you can make. Watch out for microscopic "glass" particles when you sand fiberglass, it gets in your pores and you can't get it out for days. 

  • Penetration with any of these methods somehow reducing the effectiveness of the permeability of the nest is an unfounded concern. Any of these products may penetrate less than 1mm to establish the chemical bond, but that's it. You need to get something like deep penetrating resin to have any noticeable effect and even then it won't penetrate the entire nest. Although the strength of penetrating epoxies is debatable, that's outside the scope of this forum. 

I saw this thread when it was first posted. I didn't respond since it seemed like Frank was concerned about VOCs. Sealing a hole without using a product that has VOCs removes 80% of all the practical options I can think of (you'd have to go with some sort of tight physical fit, e.g. stuffing a cork in the hole). It's been my experience here on the forums that it's just best to respect the wishes of people asking the questions, even if they have some unfounded concerns. That being said, VOCs for all applicable types of paint and epoxy are no concern if you properly ventilate the immediate area. Put the piece in front of a fan or let it sit outside for 48 hours. If you are really suspicious, wash it out with water and let it dry completely. Key word: CHEMICALLY INERT. 

 

I've mixed dozens of gallons of all sorts of epoxy and used them in practical applications. Over a metric ton in weight, in just the weight of glue by itself. I've used all the products above as well minus the stone-age clay technique. There are lots of scaremongering articles online I don't agree with. Pick your poison. You can always invent a creative way to seal a hole using common household products too.



#10 Offline ANTdrew - Posted October 5 2018 - 5:28 AM

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Thank you, Trythis22! This is very helpful information. I guess I wasn't that clear as to what I was hoping to do, but basically I would like to water seal the back sides and bottom of my nest to cut down on evaporation, so I wouldn't have to hydrate it as often. Which of your above methods would be the best way to do this?

I read Chrystals tutorial on firebrick, and she suggest spraying a rubber sealer. I take it that would be fine once it is fully cured and chemically inert?


"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#11 Offline Trythis22 - Posted October 5 2018 - 3:53 PM

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Oh, I totally dropped the ball on this one. Thanks for the clarification. The above information is still true for if you want to seal a hole as they will all provide a waterproof seal as long as you apply it correctly and choose a non-shrink product. However, you’re trying to seal the entire nest, which is a different process I’m not as well familiar with. If I need to seal a large surface, I roll on some primer and topcoat, using marine grade paints if it needs to be especially weather-resistant. Not too expensive, but you need to buy a lot at a time – not to mention this is a much smaller area – so probably not the best fit for you. 
 
If I understand correctly, firebrick is highly porous – you’d have a tough time keeping it hydrated, especially if you are heating the nest. Regular paint will prevent the material from breathing but I don’t recommend you do this since the paint will degrade if kept in wet conditions. Paints used for marine applications such as epoxy polyurethane will work, albeit not the best fit for this case. 
 
The rubber sealant is probably the waterproofing tar material. Liquid rubber, they call it. That stuff is nasty and I stained a bunch of my clothes with it so I’m not a huge fan. But, it’ll work. Absolutely no need to worry about VOCs. Just leave it outside for 48 hours or put it in front of a fan. Make sure you apply it outside on some cardboard and wear clothes you don’t care about. Use a disposable paint brush. This is if you buy the gallon version
 
Aerosol version: I don’t have experience with the small aerosol cans (I assume this one? https://www.homedepo...R20/203144520),but I imagine it’s much cleaner. I still advise spraying it outside on cardboard. Don’t touch when wet! Vinegar will get it off if you do though. 
 
One way to circumvent this problem (long-term hydration and ease of maintenance) is to approach it at a different angle: Have you considered adding some sort of water reservoir that can be easily refilled to the nest? You don’t even need a sponge, just the water tank needs to be able to evaporate – yet covered or hidden so ants don’t drown – to allow the water molecules to reach equilibrium in terms of evaporation and condensation (this is humidity). Reducing airflow into the entire system will reduce water loss. Customizing the nest as to surround the firebrick with a non-breathing material from the get-go removes this problem entirely. In certain situations, modifying ambient humidity will reduce evaporation rate. I don’t have any idea what your setup looks like and providing a picture can help generate more ideas. 
 
In short, the aerosol liquid rubber spray seems like the quick and dirty solution for your situation. I’d recommend that. 

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#12 Offline ANTdrew - Posted October 7 2018 - 2:57 AM

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10/4! Excellent info again and thank you! I’m wondering now, can I use Rustoleum clear gloss spray?? I already have a can in my basement.
The two nests I’m sealing will be going in a 10”x10” fish tank (designed for betas) as an all-in-one design. I’ll try to post photos when I get a chance.
"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#13 Offline ANTdrew - Posted October 7 2018 - 3:00 AM

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Oh, and I went ahead and took your advice about a water resevoir. I carved out a compartment for a mini snap-cap vial that I can fill with water to evaporate. I glued mesh on the snap lid.
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"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#14 Offline ANTdrew - Posted October 8 2018 - 10:53 AM

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Trythis22, here is what I'm working with. I made access to a water reservoir up top of the nests and sealed them off with mesh.


"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#15 Offline nurbs - Posted October 8 2018 - 1:37 PM

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If you seal the nest, how are you going to clean it? Ease of maintenance and reusability is one of the many things I see many DIY and commericial nests lack, and one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of this kind of design (where you prop it up against an aquarium). 
 
Ants do immensely retarded things, one of which is leaving uneaten food inside their nest which will mold, especially when the colony is considerably smaller than the nest. Maybe find a sealant that is not permanent? Some form of clay?
 
Remember - before you start making it pretty or fancy, make sure the nest can be maintained and the ants do well in it first. This is something I see all the time in DIY designs. I've had so many buyers come back to me a month later telling me they killed their colony because they made a nest and discarded the formicarium that came with the ants.

 

Definitely not trying to be negative or disparaging here! Just giving advice from personal experience.


Instagram:
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YouTube
 
California Ants for Sale

 

Unidentified Myrmecocystus

https://www.formicul...ls-near-desert/

 

Undescribed "Modoc"

https://www.formicul...mp-ca-5-4-2017/

 

Camponotus or Colobopsis yogi:

https://www.formicul...a-ca-1-28-2018/

 
Camponotus us-ca02
https://www.formicul...onotus-us-ca02/

 

Unidentified Formica

https://www.formicul...l-ca-6-27-2020/

 
Pencil Case and Test Tube Formicariums
https://www.formicul...m-and-outworld/
 
Bloodworm Soup
https://www.formicul...bloodworm-soup/


#16 Offline Kalidas - Posted October 8 2018 - 2:00 PM

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If you seal the nest, how are you going to clean it? Ease of maintenance and reusability is one of the many things I see many DIY and commericial nests lack, and one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of this kind of design (where you prop it up against an aquarium). 
 
Ants do immensely retarded things, one of which is leaving uneaten food inside their nest which will mold, especially when the colony is considerably smaller than the nest. Maybe find a sealant that is not permanent? Some form of clay?
 
Remember - before you start making it pretty or fancy, make sure the nest can be maintained and the ants do well in it first. This is something I see all the time in DIY designs. I've had so many buyers come back to me a month later telling me they killed their colony because they made a nest and discarded the formicarium that came with the ants.
 
Definitely not trying to be negative or disparaging here! Just giving advice from personal experience.


So do you only recommend separate formicarium outworld set ups? What about natural set ups?

#17 Offline nurbs - Posted October 8 2018 - 2:18 PM

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That's a loaded question, but there are many solutions to this, some of which had been explored with great detail here on this forum such as @dspdrew (the forum owner) and myself. You must take into account the species of ants you are keeping. One type of setup does not fit all.

 

The "test tube setup in a bin" works for many species.

 

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For certain species that need to hang like Myrmecocystus, I use Tar Heel Ants (top right). They are the only commerical nests I've tried and like (and I have tried many).

 

jmoshKDl.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

If you seal the nest, how are you going to clean it? Ease of maintenance and reusability is one of the many things I see many DIY and commericial nests lack, and one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of this kind of design (where you prop it up against an aquarium). 
 
Ants do immensely retarded things, one of which is leaving uneaten food inside their nest which will mold, especially when the colony is considerably smaller than the nest. Maybe find a sealant that is not permanent? Some form of clay?
 
Remember - before you start making it pretty or fancy, make sure the nest can be maintained and the ants do well in it first. This is something I see all the time in DIY designs. I've had so many buyers come back to me a month later telling me they killed their colony because they made a nest and discarded the formicarium that came with the ants.
 
Definitely not trying to be negative or disparaging here! Just giving advice from personal experience.

So do you only recommend separate formicarium outworld set ups? What about natural set ups?

 

 


Instagram:
nurbsants
 
YouTube
 
California Ants for Sale

 

Unidentified Myrmecocystus

https://www.formicul...ls-near-desert/

 

Undescribed "Modoc"

https://www.formicul...mp-ca-5-4-2017/

 

Camponotus or Colobopsis yogi:

https://www.formicul...a-ca-1-28-2018/

 
Camponotus us-ca02
https://www.formicul...onotus-us-ca02/

 

Unidentified Formica

https://www.formicul...l-ca-6-27-2020/

 
Pencil Case and Test Tube Formicariums
https://www.formicul...m-and-outworld/
 
Bloodworm Soup
https://www.formicul...bloodworm-soup/


#18 Offline Kalidas - Posted October 8 2018 - 3:35 PM

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Oh sorry didn't mean to ask a loaded question but I can see that is exactly what I did.

What is it about tar heel that's so great? Everyone seems to have a lot of good things to say about them.

I had a kind of idea I thought might be interesting but not sure how well it would work. Either an aquarium where most of the space would be "blocked off" by like fire brick and a thin maybe two inch layer of material (so you get that up against glass look, but in a more "natural" way), with some holes drilled at the bottom to allow for drainage. Maybe even some cleaner bugs for waste.

Or maybe cut out a large section of an acrylic aquarium that can be put over a home made formicarium and the piece of acrylic would be screwed in(like any normal Formicarium) so you can undo it if you need to clean. But it would still work like the set ups posted above...maybe a best of both worlds?

Edited by Kalidas, October 8 2018 - 3:38 PM.


#19 Offline nurbs - Posted October 8 2018 - 4:33 PM

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Do a search, plenty of info on here. We don’t want threads to go off too many tangents.

Instagram:
nurbsants
 
YouTube
 
California Ants for Sale

 

Unidentified Myrmecocystus

https://www.formicul...ls-near-desert/

 

Undescribed "Modoc"

https://www.formicul...mp-ca-5-4-2017/

 

Camponotus or Colobopsis yogi:

https://www.formicul...a-ca-1-28-2018/

 
Camponotus us-ca02
https://www.formicul...onotus-us-ca02/

 

Unidentified Formica

https://www.formicul...l-ca-6-27-2020/

 
Pencil Case and Test Tube Formicariums
https://www.formicul...m-and-outworld/
 
Bloodworm Soup
https://www.formicul...bloodworm-soup/


#20 Offline ANTdrew - Posted October 8 2018 - 5:34 PM

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Thank you, Nurbs! I really appreciate your feedback, but dang now what am I going to do? I’m leaning heavily now just towards filling the tank halfway up with dirt and letting my pavement ants nest under a flat rock. They will love it. I have two colonies, so one can go in dirt and maybe I can save up for THA formicarium for the other. I have one in a tub and tube set up and the other is exploding out of a mini-hearth (that’s the one I really need to move.)
"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.





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