66 replies to this topic

[Alabama Anter]

 

Let's be honest. We don't fully respect dogs. In fact, having any dog in captivity doesn't seem right. If we truly respect dogs, whether they die today or tomorrow, they should be left in the wild, with complete "freedom." Let's all not depict ourselves as this "pure" innocent human beings, who haven't committed a single crime, minor or large, or any acts associated with immorality. I brought this topic up because of some other posts mentioned about doing the "right" thing, and it aches me for someone to paint themselves and make others paint themselves something they are not deep inside.

 

Let's be honest. We don't fully respect cats. In fact, having any cat in captivity doesn't seem right. If we truly respect cats, whether they die today or tomorrow, they should be left in the wild, with complete "freedom." Let's all not depict ourselves as this "pure" innocent human beings, who haven't committed a single crime, minor or large, or any acts associated with immorality. I brought this topic up because of some other posts mentioned about doing the "right" thing, and it aches me for someone to paint themselves and make others paint themselves something they are not deep inside.

 

 

Let's be honest. We don't fully respect cows. In fact, having any cow in captivity doesn't seem right. If we truly respect cows, whether they die today or tomorrow, they should be left in the wild, with complete "freedom." Let's all not depict ourselves as this "pure" innocent human beings, who haven't committed a single crime, minor or large, or any acts associated with immorality. I brought this topic up because of some other posts mentioned about doing the "right" thing, and it aches me for someone to paint themselves and make others paint themselves something they are not deep inside.

 

 

 

All of these animals are domesticated. It would be a completely different scenario if you were trying to keep a pet tiger. Even so, I don't really see how you can compare a warm blooded mammal to small social insects. As long as the animal is properly cared for and healthy, I don't see the problem.

 

 

Let's be honest. We don't fully respect ants. In fact, having any ant in captivity doesn't seem right. If we truly respect ants, whether they die today or tomorrow, they should be left in the wild, with complete "freedom." Let's all not depict ourselves as this "pure" innocent human beings, who haven't committed a single crime, minor or large, or any acts associated with immorality. I brought this topic up because of some other posts mentioned about doing the "right" thing, and it aches me for someone to paint themselves and make others paint themselves something they are not deep inside.

Ants can't comprehend their captivity. According to Wikepedia.com, "With the exception of some cephalopods, invertebrate species are not protected under most animal research legislation" and there is a very good reason for this. Almost all invertebrates lack higher thinking skills and act entirely on instinct. In fact, I would argue it is MUCH better in captivity for ants than in the wild as long as they are cared for properly. In the wild, the survival rate of ants is abysmally low and death is always looming close by, but in captivity, you make the survival rate as high as possible and give the ants everything they could ever need, thus highly improving their quality of life, although, ants have no concept of "quality of life".

 

I agree with this 100%

[ctantkeeper]

 

Ok, let's be rational a break this down. Colonies of most species release alates "en masse" in large quantities (This occurs during the ant's nuptial flight.). At the end of this massive event, most of these newly gravid queens meet their ends in a whole variety of morbid and grotesque ways (endoparasites, exoparasites, bacterial infection, contamination via mold and other fungi, drowning, dehydration, being cannibalized upon as well as being fed on by a wide variety of different organisms, which aids in supporting the health of native fauna.). To say that "some" of these queens die during these events is a gross understatement. It has been noted before that roughly only 1 out of every 100 newly mated queens makes it past the first 2 years of colony founding. By collecting queens, we are not damaging the local ecology as some might think. Collecting a colony on the other hand is a bit more destructive, as it removes a reproductively active "individual" (ei, the colony or "super organism") from passing along its own genes and from keeping other ants and invertebrates in check, disturbing the local flora and fauna. However, by practicing responsible collection habits, most of this kind of damage can be avoided altogether. By repairing structures and the surrounding environments after excavation is complete and by only taking small collecting samples from one area before moving along to the next, you can insure the continuation of a healthy ecosystem in one area or several with few major consequences resulting from this.

1 out of 100. Let's just hope we didn't take that single one that could have survived. Either way, I doubt the ants asked us to take them into captivity, and the phrase, "Let nature take its course" comes to my mind. This topic is not about convincing people not to collect ants, but to change the way people think about themselves and not try to manipulate others and justify their own actions for their own amusement, and to simply just own it. Don't be a "robin hood," stealing from the rich to give to the poor. It just doesn't fly. Let's just say your queen is William Wallace in "Braveheart."

 

Glad you agree with some some of what I put out their. However, I would like to add that as Mdrogun put it, ants lack the mental capacity to comprehend their own captivity or for that matter, quality of life in general. This issue appears to be weighing down more so on the caretakers than on the ants themselves. It is hard to stress that keeping something in captivity is "creul" when what you intend on rearing has no comprehension of the meaning of "creulty". The ants actually benefit greatly from being kept in captivity as well. They are kept in healthy, controlled environments where they are allowed to grow and prosper without the death and droves of casualties that result from living in the wild. In a sense, their quality of life goes up dramatically. My point being that the ants don't mind regardless of how we may feel about them or view their captivity.

[Serafine]

1 out of 100. Let's just hope we didn't take that single one that could have survived.

If an alate survives mostly depends on if it finds a good place to found a colony and hopefully also provides enough food sources for an adult colony. Since the number of alates is much much higher than the amount of available territory most of them simply die because they cannot find a suitable living space. A Formicarium is a living space.
 
 

All of these animals are domesticated. It would be a completely different scenario if you were trying to keep a pet tiger.

Ironically there's more tigers kept in captivity in the US than there are free-living tigers in the entire world.

[Mdrogun]

 

1 out of 100. Let's just hope we didn't take that single one that could have survived.

If an alate survives mostly depends on if it finds a good place to found a colony and hopefully also provides enough food sources for an adult colony. Since the number of alates is much much higher than the amount of available territory most of them simply die because they cannot find a suitable living space. A Formicarium is a living space.
 
 

All of these animals are domesticated. It would be a completely different scenario if you were trying to keep a pet tiger.

Ironically there's more tigers kept in captivity in the US than there are free-living tigers in the entire world.

 

Yeah, I've heard about this. Aren't the majority kept by zoos and such? I am well aware of individuals keeping large, undomesticated predators, and I am completely against it. In my state, it is illegal to keep tigers and other large animals like it, unless you are something like a zoo.

Edited by Mdrogun, April 30 2017 - 10:39 AM.

[Alabama Anter]

Nope not in zoos. There are more captive tigers in Texas then there are in the wild. (So stupid)

[thosaka]

 

Let's be honest. We don't fully respect ants. In fact, having any ant in captivity doesn't seem right. If we truly respect ants, whether they die today or tomorrow, they should be left in the wild, with complete "freedom." Let's all not depict ourselves as this "pure" innocent human beings, who haven't committed a single crime, minor or large, or any acts associated with immorality. I brought this topic up because of some other posts mentioned about doing the "right" thing, and it aches me for someone to paint themselves and make others paint themselves something they are not deep inside.so 

so you are telling us to release our ants?

 

No. I think people got me confused. Some people in this forum are trying to bring up things like morality and doing the right thing, when all we really do is the opposite. I am just tired of people trying to justify their actions. I wouldn't tell you to release your ants because I am on your side, taking queen ants as well. To sum it up, and be a little exaggerated, I want people to own it and say, "I know it's wrong, but I will continue to do it."

[Tyrael]

 

 

Let's be honest. We don't fully respect ants. In fact, having any ant in captivity doesn't seem right. If we truly respect ants, whether they die today or tomorrow, they should be left in the wild, with complete "freedom." Let's all not depict ourselves as this "pure" innocent human beings, who haven't committed a single crime, minor or large, or any acts associated with immorality. I brought this topic up because of some other posts mentioned about doing the "right" thing, and it aches me for someone to paint themselves and make others paint themselves something they are not deep inside.so 

so you are telling us to release our ants?

 

No. I think people got me confused. Some people in this forum are trying to bring up things like morality and doing the right thing, when all we really do is the opposite. I am just tired of people trying to justify their actions. I wouldn't tell you to release your ants because I am on your side, taking queen ants as well. To sum it up, and be a little exaggerated, I want people to own it and say, "I know it's wrong, but I will continue to do it."

 

Why is it wrong though? Ants have an objectively better life in captivity. Their environment is carefully controlled, resulting in ideal temperature and humidity conditions for growth and "comfort". Their life is free of disease, parasites and predators. They have a constant source of food and water. The only negative is that they are "imprisoned", but they are not capable of understanding that. You are erroneously applying human characteristics to a creature that is not capable of it.  

[thosaka]

 

 

 

Let's be honest. We don't fully respect ants. In fact, having any ant in captivity doesn't seem right. If we truly respect ants, whether they die today or tomorrow, they should be left in the wild, with complete "freedom." Let's all not depict ourselves as this "pure" innocent human beings, who haven't committed a single crime, minor or large, or any acts associated with immorality. I brought this topic up because of some other posts mentioned about doing the "right" thing, and it aches me for someone to paint themselves and make others paint themselves something they are not deep inside.so 

so you are telling us to release our ants?

 

No. I think people got me confused. Some people in this forum are trying to bring up things like morality and doing the right thing, when all we really do is the opposite. I am just tired of people trying to justify their actions. I wouldn't tell you to release your ants because I am on your side, taking queen ants as well. To sum it up, and be a little exaggerated, I want people to own it and say, "I know it's wrong, but I will continue to do it."

 

Why is it wrong though? Ants have an objectively better life in captivity. Their environment is carefully controlled, resulting in ideal temperature and humidity conditions for growth and "comfort". Their life is free of disease, parasites and predators. They have a constant source of food and water. The only negative is that they are "imprisoned", but they are not capable of understanding that. You are erroneously applying human characteristics to a creature that is not capable of it.  

 

To easily sum it up, they aren't in a natural habitat.

[Tyrael]

 

 

 

 

Let's be honest. We don't fully respect ants. In fact, having any ant in captivity doesn't seem right. If we truly respect ants, whether they die today or tomorrow, they should be left in the wild, with complete "freedom." Let's all not depict ourselves as this "pure" innocent human beings, who haven't committed a single crime, minor or large, or any acts associated with immorality. I brought this topic up because of some other posts mentioned about doing the "right" thing, and it aches me for someone to paint themselves and make others paint themselves something they are not deep inside.so 

so you are telling us to release our ants?

 

No. I think people got me confused. Some people in this forum are trying to bring up things like morality and doing the right thing, when all we really do is the opposite. I am just tired of people trying to justify their actions. I wouldn't tell you to release your ants because I am on your side, taking queen ants as well. To sum it up, and be a little exaggerated, I want people to own it and say, "I know it's wrong, but I will continue to do it."

 

Why is it wrong though? Ants have an objectively better life in captivity. Their environment is carefully controlled, resulting in ideal temperature and humidity conditions for growth and "comfort". Their life is free of disease, parasites and predators. They have a constant source of food and water. The only negative is that they are "imprisoned", but they are not capable of understanding that. You are erroneously applying human characteristics to a creature that is not capable of it.  

 

To easily sum it up, they aren't in a natural habitat.

 

Why is that inherently bad? Cities are artificial habitats. 

[thosaka]

http://us.whales.org...end-captivity-0

 

I assume most of you guys will use the same reasoning behind whales and dolphins. I love how the human mind works to justify their actions. I think Americans in general want one day of freedom than 60 years of captivity? What do you guys think? People are already freaking out about freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, the wire-tapping scandal, and here, you guys tell me ants prefer captivity? Hahahaha. Are you speaking for yourself, or are you speaking for the ants? Are you their god or lawyer? Do you represent them? The best solution to something you are unsure of is to leave it alone, let it be, or stop sugarcoating and own it.

[Civz]

I would argue that ants arent as self aware as humans. this arguments makes the assumption that ants care about, or require the same things as humans do (both in the sense of health requirements, entertainment, social, ect.)  and i don't think that's a fair statement.. and as for the "The best solution to something you are unsure of is to leave it alone, let it be, or stop sugarcoating and own it.", Are you sure? plenty of species have suffered or gone extinct without human interference, just to have people say "well we should have done something".. so it kind of feels like a screwed if we don't or screwed if we do situation...   None of this is to justify either side really, i just don't think its a correct stance to assume that ants want or care about what we want =/ 

[thosaka]

I would argue that ants arent as self aware as humans. this arguments makes the assumption that ants care about, or require the same things as humans do (both in the sense of health requirements, entertainment, social, ect.)  and i don't think that's a fair statement.. and as for the "The best solution to something you are unsure of is to leave it alone, let it be, or stop sugarcoating and own it.", Are you sure? plenty of species have suffered or gone extinct without human interference, just to have people say "well we should have done something".. so it kind of feels like a screwed if we don't or screwed if we do situation...   None of this is to justify either side really, i just don't think its a correct stance to assume that ants want or care about what we want =/ 

That's a whole new topic if you are talking about extinction. Are we talking about extinction due to human activity? Global warming? So we are causing the problem and we are trying to fix it? Then, intervention is necessary, but let's be honest. Are the majority of ant hobbyists collecting queen ants with the mindset of trying to save them? Yeah, I don't think so. Entertainment/amusement would be the first reason people get into ant keeping. Once again, I am talking about the "majority."

[Civz]

what about education? can i not say that i lean from observing my ants almost daily?  and what value or lack there of can we put on that?  The argument of morality comes from aa lack of ability to ask the ants does it not?  We can't just assume that we are causing them negativity without proof.. and from what i see all the demonstrable evidence shows better quality of living for the ants.  I do understand that many people in the hobby do more harm then good.. lots of people dig up colonies, or keep ants they shouldn't. i have been offered ants from other states, and other countries, so clearly there is a spectrum here... but i feel like a heavy amount of this point of view comes from a lack of understanding perhaps

[Tyrael]

http://us.whales.org...end-captivity-0

 

I assume most of you guys will use the same reasoning behind whales and dolphins. I love how the human mind works to justify their actions. I think Americans in general want one day of freedom than 60 years of captivity? What do you guys think? People are already freaking out about freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, the wire-tapping scandal, and here, you guys tell me ants prefer captivity? Hahahaha. Are you speaking for yourself, or are you speaking for the ants? Are you their god or lawyer? Do you represent them? The best solution to something you are unsure of is to leave it alone, let it be, or stop sugarcoating and own it.

Comparing an ant to a whale is false equivalency.

 

The cognitive ability of an ant is orders of magnitude below that of whale.  

 

Whales require much more space and maintenance than ants. Ants are therefore more economical and easy to give proper care. Comparing an ant to a whale in this regard is like comparing a mouse to an elephant. Elephants require huge habitats and food compared to a mouse and thus the comparison is ridiculous. Consider the time, effort and money it would take to properly care for an elephant vs a mouse, and likewise a whale vs an ant colony. 

 

Assuming they have a good owner, ants do prefer captivity in the sense that it is a better environment for them. They do not prefer it in the sense that they have personally reasoned it, because they lack the cognitive ability to do that. 

 

Are you vegan? If not, how do you justify exploiting animals for your benefit? Do you own a pet? If yes, how do you justify "enslaving" it for your amusement? 

[Superant33]

I apologize to all of my ants. Life without freedom is no life at all. I have placed them all in the freezer so that their pathetic life can end. Although an ant only has 50 million neurons and can't comprehend any of this, I am sure they are in a better place now. I have to go and feed my tiger now.

[thosaka]

http://us.whales.org...end-captivity-0

I assume most of you guys will use the same reasoning behind whales and dolphins. I love how the human mind works to justify their actions. I think Americans in general want one day of freedom than 60 years of captivity? What do you guys think? People are already freaking out about freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, the wire-tapping scandal, and here, you guys tell me ants prefer captivity? Hahahaha. Are you speaking for yourself, or are you speaking for the ants? Are you their god or lawyer? Do you represent them? The best solution to something you are unsure of is to leave it alone, let it be, or stop sugarcoating and own it.

Comparing an ant to a whale is false equivalency.

The cognitive ability of an ant is orders of magnitude below that of whale.

Whales require much more space and maintenance than ants. Ants are therefore more economical and easy to give proper care. Comparing an ant to a whale in this regard is like comparing a mouse to an elephant. Elephants require huge habitats and food compared to a mouse and thus the comparison is ridiculous. Consider the time, effort and money it would take to properly care for an elephant vs a mouse, and likewise a whale vs an ant colony.

Assuming they have a good owner, ants do prefer captivity in the sense that it is a better environment for them. They do not prefer it in the sense that they have personally reasoned it, because they lack the cognitive ability to do that.

Are you vegan? If not, how do you justify exploiting animals for your benefit? Do you own a pet? If yes, how do you justify "enslaving" it for your amusement?

You can't justify. You have to own it. You guys aren't reading my topic clearly. I didn't say I am innocent. I am in the same shoe you are, taking queen ants and putting them into captivity. I am talking to the people who sugarcoat themselves. I am not vegan, thus, I feel guilt eating meat, because I know what I am doing is wrong, but I don't try to sugarcoat myself by saying for ex. "oh, but I have to feed my family, so I don't have a choice," bs excuse I am hearing here and there.

Edited by Tagassi, April 30 2017 - 3:00 PM.

[thosaka]

http://us.whales.org...end-captivity-0

I assume most of you guys will use the same reasoning behind whales and dolphins. I love how the human mind works to justify their actions. I think Americans in general want one day of freedom than 60 years of captivity? What do you guys think? People are already freaking out about freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, the wire-tapping scandal, and here, you guys tell me ants prefer captivity? Hahahaha. Are you speaking for yourself, or are you speaking for the ants? Are you their god or lawyer? Do you represent them? The best solution to something you are unsure of is to leave it alone, let it be, or stop sugarcoating and own it.

Comparing an ant to a whale is false equivalency.

The cognitive ability of an ant is orders of magnitude below that of whale.

Whales require much more space and maintenance than ants. Ants are therefore more economical and easy to give proper care. Comparing an ant to a whale in this regard is like comparing a mouse to an elephant. Elephants require huge habitats and food compared to a mouse and thus the comparison is ridiculous. Consider the time, effort and money it would take to properly care for an elephant vs a mouse, and likewise a whale vs an ant colony.

Assuming they have a good owner, ants do prefer captivity in the sense that it is a better environment for them. They do not prefer it in the sense that they have personally reasoned it, because they lack the cognitive ability to do that.

Are you vegan? If not, how do you justify exploiting animals for your benefit? Do you own a pet? If yes, how do you justify "enslaving" it for your amusement?

It isn't just about space limitation, it is also providing the right humidity, the right soil, the right food, sunlight, the right environment they had before, rock, wood, aphids, plants, everything the majority of us can't provide that their original environment had.

Edited by Tagassi, April 30 2017 - 3:08 PM.

[Tyrael]

You can't justify. You have to own it. You guys aren't reading my topic clearly. I didn't say I am innocent. I am in the same shoe you are, taking queen ants and putting them into captivity. I am talking to the people who sugarcoat themselves. I am not vegan, thus, I feel guilt eating meat, because I know what I am doing is wrong, but I don't try to sugarcoat myself by saying for ex. "oh, but I have to feed my family, so I don't have a choice," bs excuse I am hearing here and there.

 

I don't see any sugar-coating going on. I'm not convinced that ants are capable of exhibiting the human characteristics you apply to them. Your argument against keeping ants is that it's not natural and that they are imprisoned for our amusement. A lot of things are not natural. Wearing clothes is not natural. Living in environmentally controlled, artificially constructed buildings is not natural. The very method of our interaction is not natural. That does not mean it is bad. What evidence do you have that ants are capable of understanding their imprisonment and feeling sorrow over it? 

 

It isn't just about space limitation, it is also providing the right humidity, the right soil, the right food, sunlight, the right environment they had before, rock, wood, aphids, plants, everything the majority of us can't provide that their original environment had.

I didn't say it's only space. I mentioned humidity, temperature, food and so on. A human caregiver can provide these fairly easily. Why do ants need an exact replica of their habitat to thrive? Can it tell the difference between stone and ytong? Does it care if it gets sucrose from aphid secretions or sugar-water/honey? Does it care whether or not it has plants in its environment? Does it even have the capacity to care? Does it even remember it's old habitat? You see photos on this forum of thriving colonies living in 3d printed plastic and colonies managed by 12 year old boys. How could they live in that environment if they are as delicate and fussy as you imply? Should we need to make an exact replica of a wolf habitat to keep a dog as a pet?

[Alabama Anter]

No offense but this topic is BS. You speak as if we antkeepers torture our ants, rape them all day, and cuttheir limbs off one by one. We as antkeepers try our damn best to keep our ants safe and in relative harmony. Yes we make mistakes, but would they be happier in the outside world getting eaten by ant eaters, ant lions, stepped on by humans, and by birds? Like why the &*%# did you feel the need to make this topic...

[T.C.]

No offense but this topic is BS. You speak as if we antkeepers torture our ants, rape them all day, and cuttheir limbs off one by one. We as antkeepers try our damn best to keep our ants safe and in relative harmony. Yes we make mistakes, but would they be happier in the outside world getting eaten by ant eaters, ant lions, stepped on by humans, and by birds? Like why the &*%# did you feel the need to make this topic...

Take note, swaring is against the rules.

And listen people, let's all be friends. All this fighting and arguing has gotten rather ridiculous.