60 replies to this topic

[Runner12]

I've been in this hobby a long time, and over the years I've made efforts to raise numerous different Camponotus species, but I have never had success raising a colony from a single queen.

I've read through a lot of journals on this forum and others and they seem to be all follow the same pattern as my colonies, growing fine at first but then eventually brood growth becomes arrested at early larval stages, the queen stops laying and the colony will just sort of stagnate with very little activity until eventually it dies off. I really can't find a single instance of someone catching a Camponotus queen and raising a colony to the point where alates are produced.

I've tried all different sorts of nests, temperatures, humidity levels, etc. I always get the same results.

I've heard all sorts of explanations for this,them being slow growing is the number one, but I'm not sure I believe this.

This paper:
https://www.research...d_diet_for_ants

Indicates that Camponotus species require a complicated diet that it is not easy to replicate in captivity and that colony collapse is inevitable after a few generations without nutrients/minerals they have access to in the wild that they typically wouldn't get in captivity. It certainly seems to explain my experience. I've been trying to replicate this diet but I'm having a hard time finding some of the chloride salts which according to the paper are vital. A lot of this seems to have to do with an endosymbiotic bacteria that is found in their gut.

Just curious as to what people's thoughts on this are and whether anybody has successfully started with a queen and raised a Camponotus colony to the point where it was producing majors/alates, and if so,what did you do? I'm starting to wonder if keeping this genus long term is really possible without a ridiculous amount of work making food for them.

Edited by Runner12, March 31 2017 - 2:50 PM.

[soulsynapse]

Great post, looking forward to seeing others weigh in.

[Leo]

well my nicobarensis are doing fine...

[Serafine]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this about developing a PURELY SYNTHETIC diet without the colony getting any real insect or fruit?

After all their control group that was fed with honey water and roaches did fine (actually it did slightly better than the colonies that got the synthetic diet).

Also I just recently read a german C. nicobarensis journal with a colony that produced a (male) alate.

 

I think the bigger issue here is that most antkeepers do not keep their Camponotus until they are large enough to produce alates. Many Camponotus species can grow to ridiculous colony sizes with multiple 10.000 ants and most regular antkeepers just can't handle this.

Edited by Serafine, March 31 2017 - 3:54 PM.

[Runner12]

It is, but they also said it had better long term performance than bhatkar/honey/insects unless I misread it. That is, there was a slow down in brood production that didn't occur with the synthetic diet, at least during the test period. I've also spoken with researchers who have similar issues, collapse in worker production after a few generations. Most believe there is some sort of nutritional deficiency going on.

If you or others are having success, IE from queen to hundreds or thousands of workers I'd like to know what methods are being used. The most successful keepers seem to still have colonies that grow very slowly and never produce majors or medias in the size and number I see in the wild.

Edited by Runner12, March 31 2017 - 3:56 PM.

[Serafine]

Their test period was three months. My Camponotus colony did produce a single batch of workers in 3 months. That should tell you how "long term" this study is.

 

 

This is the first successful establishment of a completely synthetic artificial diet in an ant species.

 

 

 

After 13 weeks of feeding, all worker subcolonies had raised considerable numbers of pupae from the provided larvae (see Table 2). In the subcolonies fed with the holidic artificial diet, the  number of pupae raised did not differ significantly from the subcolonies fed with Bhatkar-Whitcomb diet, cockroaches and honey water.

Edited by Serafine, March 31 2017 - 4:04 PM.

[AntsMAN]

I currently have a Camponotus novaeboracansis colony with 120 or so workers and massive piles of brood, this colony is a little over 2 years old. I have had about 15-20 of these queens. The odds of getting a perfectly healthy queen is in my experience about 1 in 20. I noticed with the others about 10 or so died within a few weeks, and the others shortly after hibernation with a few workers and brood. There was one colony that seemed to neglect its cleaning duties in the nest and died shortly after a mold outbreak. I had another large colony that  died due to hibernation problems. Getting a queen with strong genetics is rare.

I use all natural products sugar, syrup, honey, molasses, etc. with a variety of fruits, nuts, breads, jams. My feeders are fed nutrients.

I give them all fresh items every two days, and keep a heating cable on them 24/7.

[Superant33]

I have had 3 C. sayi queens that have survived for over a decade. Two are still going strong. I have had allowed them to realease their alates into the environment. I think that the problem that many of you are facing is one of geography. I don't have to worry about hibernating my ants. It is pure conjecture, but I think that species of Camponotus from my area (south Texas) are far easier to raise.

[Runner12]

I'm impressed, what do you feed them? I'm trying to go after species from warmer areas too, but still haven't had much luck. Even the specialists I contacted said brood production in the lab eventually ceased even with species that don't have a very cold period. How long did it take you to grow them to that size?

I definitely agree that getting a fit queen is a huge chunk of the equation. Antsman what kind of nutrients are you giving your feeders?

Edited by Runner12, March 31 2017 - 4:44 PM.

[soulsynapse]

The article in question isn't particularly helpful to the discussion.

 

It does however provide leads elsewhere. Notably the increased nitrogen levels from their surroundings points to acquisition from plant matter-- wiki page on the gut bacteria here: https://en.wikipedia...iki/Blochmannia

 

Notably: 

 

 

 

Blochmannia is important in synthesizing essential and non essential amino acids, including tyrosine, and it helps the ant to process nitrogen. The Blochmannia bacteria improves the ants’ nutrition and, in doing this, it is also important to the overall health of the ant colony.

 

The following facts:

 

* Carpenter ants tend to prefer nesting in live oak trees

* Oak trees are particularly nitrogen dependent for growth

* Carpenter ants will chew through oak trees to build their nests

* Gut bacteria is often utilized in animals to break down cellulose

* Cellulose holds the xylem, nutrient transport tissue, carrying the nitrites from the root system

 

I think it would be fair to hypothesize that for the gut bacteria to survive the bacteria needs to interact on some degree with cellulose in the form of plant matter, if the gut bacteria dies off then past the egg stage nitrogen acquisition and other processes that the bacteria assist with aren't possible anymore. This is further supported by OP's stipulation that it takes a few generations for colonies to die off. This could be because the gut bacteria are spread by trophallaxis.

 

Further reading on general prophylaxis immunity in carpenter ants (only tangentally related): https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3030872/

[Superant33]

Nothing special. Organic fruit juice sometimes with sugar. Sunburst has been added recently. Fruit flies, mealworms and crickets. They love the new formula blue. Having said that, their protein needs are not that great. C. sayi are extremely easy to rear. If you have a fertile queen, you will be successful. The only queen that I have had that failed was collected while being attacked by fire ants. And she still managed to raise her first nanitics before succumbing to her injuries. Good luck with your Camponotus. Don't give up.

[Mdrogun]

I've had Camponotus pennsylvanicus colonies get quite large (200+ workers). I feed them a regular diet like I do all my other ants and they seem to do amazing. I just get sick of taking care of such a large colony after a while and release em or neglect to the point where they die. I don't think the issue you're experiencing is genus specific, and instead is specific to the Camponotus species in your area. I'm not really sure how to help you, some species just do horrible in captivity.

[soulsynapse]

wtf is wrong with you

[Mdrogun]

wtf is wrong with you

You realize that without my help, the queen had a .44% chance of getting nanitics right? Without me, she pretty much would of been guaranteed to be dead.

Edited by Mdrogun, March 31 2017 - 6:44 PM.

[MrILoveTheAnts]

Soulsynaps I'm sure when he said he neglects colonies it's more that he procrastinates to feed them or doesn't watch them properly over hibernation. This happens a lot, I'm guilty of it. 

 

Mdrogun you're not helping things by commenting like that. I understand he insulted you but this was getting out of hand.

 

End discussion.

[MichiganAnts]

hey runner. here's my massive Camponotus Nove colony. well over 1000 workers

 

http://www.formicult...-updated-32517/

[soulsynapse]

hey runner. here's my massive Camponotus Nove colony. well over 1000 workers

 

http://www.formicult...-updated-32517/

 

he does stipulate raising the colony from 1 queen

[MichiganAnts]

 

hey runner. here's my massive Camponotus Nove colony. well over 1000 workers

 

http://www.formicult...-updated-32517/

 

he does stipulate raising the colony from 1 queen

 

it is from 1 queen

[AntsMAN]

I've been researching and I can't seem to find much information on anyone who has kept a colony past 10 years or so. I found a bit about German entomologist Hermann Appel who had a Lasius niger colony live 29 years, but I can't find any more info than that. I'd love to know what he fed them and how he kept them.

 

@Runner12 - I feed them nature zone total bites and zilla gut load. My mealworms and superworms are massive since adding them. I also see a much better feeding response.

[Crystals]

I mostly skimmed this thread, but I will add my two cents about Camponotus in general.

 

I have noted in the past that the location (and climate) the queen originated from plays a huge part in care and success rate.

Many journals I have read with northern species that hibernate in a cold snap tend to do much better than those that hail from a place with no snow.

I have watched dozens of Camponotus journals from California do well until they hit the first 'dormancy period'. Most often the colony either completely or partially collapses.

Yet most northern ones that get put into a fridge tend to rarely had die-offs.

I once caught a hundred Camponotus herculeanus queens. about 12 died in the first 2 weeks to parasites, wasp larvae, and other unknown causes. Two years later (and 2 hibernation periods later), I still had 85 colonies hale and healthy that I sold.

Why the ones from places with no snow have such problems with a captive dormancy period is beyond me.