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Ant Keeping & the Law (USA)

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35 replies to this topic

#21 Offline ForestDragon - Posted May 29 2019 - 11:45 AM

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Just to be clear, My comments were directed more towards government than this particular law.

While I do feel that laws that cover things with a blanket are generally not good laws. I also understand the concern the law is trying to address.

 

The permit system that is setup doesn't seem unreasonable (unless the Government makes it impossible to get or makes the waiting period to issue a permit excessively long) Honestly, ant keepers are few and far between so WE weren't really anything that needed to be considered when the law was made.

 

I have to admit I am a little surprised that the Ant thing seems so serious but today I will pick up Non-native Honey Bees that originated in North Carolina to start two new Bee Colonies. they don't seem to be as concerned with Affricanized Honey Bees as they are with Fire Ants.

 

Look at some of the ecological damage that has been done by hobbyists in the past. Iguanas and Burmese Pythons in Fla. for example.

well with the burmese pythons in florida it was actually one breeder who caused the main issue on accident. a hurricane knocked down his facility and many pythons escaped, the people releasing there pets problem never really played a major factor in it because they were too spread apart to breed, but i do agree about what you are saying



#22 Offline Acutus - Posted May 29 2019 - 12:06 PM

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Just to be clear, My comments were directed more towards government than this particular law.

While I do feel that laws that cover things with a blanket are generally not good laws. I also understand the concern the law is trying to address.

 

The permit system that is setup doesn't seem unreasonable (unless the Government makes it impossible to get or makes the waiting period to issue a permit excessively long) Honestly, ant keepers are few and far between so WE weren't really anything that needed to be considered when the law was made.

 

I have to admit I am a little surprised that the Ant thing seems so serious but today I will pick up Non-native Honey Bees that originated in North Carolina to start two new Bee Colonies. they don't seem to be as concerned with Affricanized Honey Bees as they are with Fire Ants.

 

Look at some of the ecological damage that has been done by hobbyists in the past. Iguanas and Burmese Pythons in Fla. for example.

well with the burmese pythons in florida it was actually one breeder who caused the main issue on accident. a hurricane knocked down his facility and many pythons escaped, the people releasing there pets problem never really played a major factor in it because they were too spread apart to breed, but i do agree about what you are saying

 

 

Yes because if they had been against the law the breeder wouldn't have existed. No market = No business :D

Also too the list in Florida goes on and on and on!! too many to name.


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#23 Online YsTheAnt - Posted June 12 2019 - 6:00 PM

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With that logic, you could say all sorts of outrageous things. No dogs, no dog bites! No cars, no traffic! No weapons, no criminals!

But with such a mindset, the government can violate your rights with no resistance. If the government banned everything that posed a risk to people or the environment, this country (and the world) would be a very different, not very pleasant place.
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#24 Offline Acutus - Posted June 12 2019 - 6:26 PM

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With that logic, you could say all sorts of outrageous things. No dogs, no dog bites! No cars, no traffic! No weapons, no criminals!

But with such a mindset, the government can violate your rights with no resistance. If

 

Not at all. Besides There is no "Right" to allow the breeding of a non-native species in an area where they can naturalize! My No Market =No business was directed at one type of snake in particular not a blanket coverage for all snakes or worse yet all reptiles.

 

BELIEVE ME I'm ALL about limiting Government influence over our Day to Day lives. Especially the Federal Govt. but there do need to be laws sometimes. Here in MD it against the law for me to own Crocodilians, or Venomous Reptiles. Probably a good law in general for most people that would try and own them. However should I want to go through the hassle there are ways for both to be done but the process is regulated.

BTW Dogs are regulated and licensed by at least local Govt. Cars are definitely licensed by the Govt.  and the no weapons no Criminal argument has been used for the past 40 years to take away my Second amendment rights. 


Edited by Acutus, June 12 2019 - 6:29 PM.

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Aphaenogaster "NOT tennesseensis" fulva


#25 Offline Mdrogun - Posted June 12 2019 - 10:08 PM

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Look at some of the ecological damage that has been done by hobbyists in the past. Iguanas and Burmese Pythons in Fla. for example.

Oh that is an off topic can of worms there. Suffice it to say, the people pushing hard for legislation, no matter what species of animal, have no idea what they are talking about or are intentionally misleading the public with sensational propaganda with little to no actual science behind it.

*shrugs* Mother nature will always self-correct. While species becoming extinct really is unpleasant for humans that like to study them, evolution is just nature, and despite human involvement causing an expedient process in some cases, it is what it is. I laugh at people getting worked up about "damaging local wildlife" thinking humans have any REAL impact in the big picture to anything in nature at all. The govt is way out of line imho trying to dictate normal people who have not yet caused a problem on an individual basis because ants traveled over with humans (unknowingly) ages ago. Do they have anything to show that hurt anything besides weaker ant species being overrun, or anything showing ant hobbyists could have an impact past what was done unintentionally already just by human travel? 

 

While I totally get your stance, and for the most part I agree, don't underestimate the stupidity of our species  :lol: . Wasn't there some drama not too long ago about how some dude in Australia wanted to release S. invicta and watch them conquer the native species?

 

 

While it's true that weaker species are naturally taken out of the ecosystem, we may decide collectively that it is worth preserving the "weaker" species because they are interesting and unique. Wouldn't it suck if the genera Atta or Pogonomyrmex went extinct cause we didn't care to watch who was releasing what? I would also argue what even a "weaker" species is. Often times, native ants would be better suited for their ecosystem if the invaders didn't have the luck of being from a different continent so they have little to few predators in that area. Is that really how we should look to determine who deserves to survive and who doesn't? Just kinda let whoever's lucky enough to be foreign in an area survive? Seems like you'd just turn your area into a boring mono-culture, kind of like with Linepithema humile in parts of California.


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#26 Offline Serafine - Posted June 13 2019 - 2:11 AM

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With that logic, you could say all sorts of outrageous things.
 
No dogs, no dog bites!

Some dogs that are deemed very dangerous do indeed require special permissions in my country (you can dispute over the exact species that are on this list but they are in fact species that caused incidents in the past, some of them have bitten children to death).

And some dog breeds that are deemed torture breeds (in torture for the dogs because they are so disfigured that they can't even breath properly) are in fact forbidden.
 

No cars, no traffic!

This does in fact work if done right but most cities' public transport system SUCKS (Vienna has a really good one which is why my sister actually doesn't own a car anymore - she just doesn't need it).
 

No weapons, no criminals!

You probably wouldn't have less criminals but it would definitely reduce the number of around THIRTY THOUSAND citizens that get shot by guns in the United States PER YEAR.

Seriously, those are numbers some countries with an actual civil war going on don't reach.

 

And no, I'm not saying you should remove all guns (which would be a lost cause anyway considering how swamped the US already is with them) but to use the 2nd amendment in defense of assault rfiles sales (you know, that type of weapon that is commonly used in mass shootings to massacre down dozens of people within a few minutes) is nonsense. You do not need an assault rifle - a WAR WEAPON - to defend yourself and your property. Semi-automatic Pistols and regular shotguns are more than enough to do that. There obviously is an agreement on which weapons are safe for civilian use anyway otherwise the ban of grenade launchers (like the PAW), rocket launchers (why can't you buy a Javelin on the public market?) and recoilles rifles like the Davy Crocket would violate the 2nd amendment, too.

 

But with such a mindset, the government can violate your rights with no resistance. If the government banned everything that posed a risk to people or the environment, this country (and the world) would be a very different, not very pleasant place.

Not every ban the government does is bad. Yes, they sometimes go overboard but most of the stuff that gets banned country-wide gets banned for a good reason - just remember that when the ENTIRE WORLD banned lead paint at the beginning of the last century and the US was like "meh, it's cheap so let's just continue to use it what's the worst that could happen?" and did so until into the thrities with the the result that EVEN TODAY small children can still still DIE from lead poisoning when playing in the floor of an old house and eating paint chips fallen from the walls.

 

Certain invasive species are a major issue and can damage ecosystems beyond repair once they have established themselves to a certain degree. Just ask antkeepers from southern Texas about their struggles to find anything that isn't Solenopsis invicta - or the farmers who regularly have to deal with farming equipment worth thousands of dollars getting destroyed by concrete-hard invicta hills hidden among their crops.

 

And no, I'm not saying that ALL exotic animals should be banned but sorting out at least the known invasives and organisms that are very likely to flourish in a certain ecosystem (like swamp snakes in Florida) might actually be a smart thing to do. And if a species manages to wipe out an entire GROUP of animals from a place (like yellow crazy ants wipe out entire bird populations from islands, electric ants smash spider populations into non-existance or imported fire ants make pretty much all other ants go extinct) that's a good reason for not wanting to have them in your own country.


Edited by Serafine, June 13 2019 - 2:14 AM.

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#27 Offline Barristan - Posted June 13 2019 - 3:36 AM

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It should be forbidden to keep ants from other regions far away with same climate. Like ants from Canada in Germany. But I never get the whole panic about Solenopsis invicta in Germany or UK. I mean I would probably not keep them because they grow fast, can reach huge colony size and have a stinger, so if they escape it will get painful. But they have no chance to becoming invasive in Middle- or Northern Europe.



#28 Offline Ant_Dude2908 - Posted June 13 2019 - 5:22 AM

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@Sarafine, all legal assault rifles in the U.S. are semi automatic. ;)
So if we take away assault rifles, mass shootings stop? You do realize that there are ways to obtain any weapon you want, illegally, right? As long as humans exist, there will be the select few that mean harm to others. Taking assault rifles away won't stop, or even hinder that.

Edited by Ant_Dude2908, June 13 2019 - 5:23 AM.


#29 Offline Acutus - Posted June 13 2019 - 7:16 AM

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 but to use the 2nd amendment in defense of assault rfiles sales (you know, that type of weapon that is commonly used in mass shootings to massacre down dozens of people within a few minutes) is nonsense. You do not need an assault rifle - a WAR WEAPON - to defend yourself and your property. Semi-automatic Pistols and regular shotguns are more than enough to do that. There obviously is an agreement on which weapons are safe for civilian use anyway otherwise the ban of grenade launchers (like the PAW), rocket launchers (why can't you buy a Javelin on the public market?) and recoilles rifles like the Davy Crocket would violate the 2nd amendment, too.

 

 

 

 

First of all you need to understand the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the US. It defined a RIGHT given to all by their Creator. It also exists not just for your Self Protection. It exists to allow the People to defend themselves from an Oppressive Government. To do so the people MUST have access to weapons capable of defending themselves against those in the Military that would stand against them.

The problem here in the US isn't guns. We've always had guns. It's how we handle Mental Health Issues. Which basically we don't handle at all.

This is an ant forum however so I'd like to not get too far off track.


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Billy

 

Currently keeping:

Camponotus chromaiodes

Camponotus castaneus

Camponotus pennsylvanicus

Aphaenogaster "NOT tennesseensis" fulva


#30 Offline Serafine - Posted June 13 2019 - 7:18 AM

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@Sarafine, all legal assault rifles in the U.S. are semi automatic. ;)
So if we take away assault rifles, mass shootings stop? You do realize that there are ways to obtain any weapon you want, illegally, right? As long as humans exist, there will be the select few that mean harm to others. Taking assault rifles away won't stop, or even hinder that.

Just ask yourself how high the chances of people like the guys that carried out the Columbine massacre or the guy responsible for the Parkland massacre are to get an illegal assault rifle.
 
A few decades ago after a horrendous mass shooting where a man shot 16 children in a school the UK found itself at a decisive point in history - some people called for a gun licencing system and strong firearm restrictions while others called for a rule similar to the USA's 2nd amendment and stuff like concealed carry. The UK decided to not go down the american way and banned most types of guns while also introducing a licencing system.
Here's a nice compirason the independent made:
 

Perhaps the Firearms Act did indeed save us from going down the American path. But there are still guns out there on our streets, albeit mainly antique and obsolete guns. Nabis can only make conservative estimates based on the ballistics information they painstakingly obtain from remnants recovered at scenes of crimes. However, the number of guns they suggest are on our streets might well surprise you.
For the period 1 April, 2016 to 31 March 2017, the number of guns [...] in criminal hands in England, Scotland and Wales was 322.
Which, give or take, is a little less than the 331 mass shootings officially recorded in America this year [2018] alone, where legal civilian gun ownership amounts to 265 million firearms.

You can never prevent mass shootings entirely. But if you have around 300 mass shootings and around 30.000 gun kills PER YEAR your society is clearly incapable of properly handling it's firearms and it's likely for the best to lock those guns away for the same reasons you don't give kindergarden kids a set of sushi knives.

 

The problem here in the US isn't guns. We've always had guns. It's how we handle Mental Health Issues. Which basically we don't handle at all.

Oh yes, I remember that discussion. It came up when Donald Trump as one of his first actual presidential acts removed the rule that prevented people with diagnosed mental issues from buying guns. Because clearly it made the country a better place when people with schizophrenia, PTSD and seizures are allowed to handle firearms.

Honestly the US has a problem with caring for it's citizens in general, especially those in need. It's no wonder the younger generations are drifting leftwards so hard and social democracy is on the rise (it's nice for once to see a European culture concept being exporting to US instead of the other way around all the time). They are starting to realize how that rampant uncontrolled social darwinism version of capitalism is ruining their country and what a blatant lie that "tickle down effect" has become.

 

This is an ant forum however so I'd like to not get too far off track.

Sorry for opening this can of worms.


Edited by Serafine, June 13 2019 - 7:33 AM.

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#31 Online drtrmiller - Posted June 13 2019 - 7:19 AM

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Please stay on topic.  This isn't a gun control debate thread.

 

Hitler.


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#32 Offline Serafine - Posted June 13 2019 - 7:39 AM

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Please stay on topic.  This isn't a gun control debate thread.

 

Hitler.

Technically it's still a law discussion ;)

 

King Andrew the First.


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#33 Offline Ant_Dude2908 - Posted June 13 2019 - 1:37 PM

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The U.S. government doesn't take care of civilians. (Well not supposed to.) There is a reason why this is a "free country" . We, the people take care of ourselves. Please look into the history of the U.S. before making assumptions. :)

Edited by Ant_Dude2908, June 13 2019 - 1:38 PM.

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#34 Offline Martialis - Posted June 13 2019 - 1:57 PM

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I move for a "lock" on this thread.

 

Any seconds?


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Spoiler

#35 Offline Serafine - Posted June 13 2019 - 3:52 PM

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Ah yes, the "free country" where coders have to work 100 hour week shifts for months until they suffer mental breakdowns, where they're are forced into private arbitration so they can't sue their company for discrimination, abusive treatment and sexual harassment.

What a great "freedom" that is.


Edited by Serafine, June 13 2019 - 3:53 PM.

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#36 Offline Acutus - Posted June 13 2019 - 4:22 PM

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I move for a "lock" on this thread.

 

Any seconds?

2nd :D


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Billy

 

Currently keeping:

Camponotus chromaiodes

Camponotus castaneus

Camponotus pennsylvanicus

Aphaenogaster "NOT tennesseensis" fulva






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