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Steady heat or try to have a day/night cycle?


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#1 Offline PaxxMantid - Posted April 17 2019 - 1:37 PM

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hi all - 

 

I'm a new ant keeper with 4 apparently successful colonies:

 

Lasius Niger (queen and 1 worker in a test tube)

 

Lasius Americanus, Camponotus pennsylvanicus. , and Tetramorium caespitum (all in mini hearths and doing well)

 

I removed them from the wine cooler a few weeks ago, and they seemed ok but weren't eating much and just hanging around.  The temps were in the low 70's and I wanted to help them out with some heat. So, I have a ceramic heat lamp hanging above the counter, with a cheap on/off thermostat controlling it so that the surface of the counter is about 76. The top of the mini hearth is just a bit warmer, a degree or two. 

 

The ants seem thrilled.  I am happy to announce that each colony now has a bunch of eggs, some larvae, and a few pupae.

 

Now I'm trying to figure out the best way to dial in the heat so that all the 4 species are happy. From what I can tell, high 70's and even over 80 is great for most ants. I have over head light so they can get a heat gradient but really not much - the outworld is on top and just a bit warmer. But, they certainly seem happy.  

 

Is there any detail about what the ideal temps are? I just seem to find ranges but if I have a thermostat I might as well set it to the best possible temp.

 

Also, would it be worth putting in a night drop, i.e. have it drop down x degrees during the night, or do the ants not really care about that? 

 

any advice much appreciated!

 



#2 Offline Carpenter - Posted April 17 2019 - 3:17 PM

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For Camponotus 80 is perfect, from what I'm finding heat 24/7 is fine as long as you don't let the heated area go above 27c, you may have to add extra humidity to compensate and also make sure there is a gradient so they can move stuff and themselves out of the heat if they need. 

 

That will give you the fastest egg --> worker turn over time but requires extra protein to let the queen ramp up egg production 

 

Can't say for the Lasius though 


Edited by Carpenter, April 17 2019 - 3:17 PM.


#3 Offline drtrmiller - Posted April 17 2019 - 4:39 PM

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I use a space heater and external digital heat controller programmed to keep the temperature within 0.5 degrees fahrenheit—very stable.  The reason is because small, poorly ventilated enclosures with high humidity will succumb to condensation whenever there is a substantial temperature drop changes.

 

I've had colonies drown when the condensation became too extreme and I didn't notice in time.  As long as the temperature doesn't decrease, humidity can remain high in the nest with virtually zero risk of condensation.

 

Lots of ants construct and modify their nests with the intent of regulating a more stable temperature and humidity.  So I think if we can provide them a stable temperature in captivity, they will fare better.


Edited by drtrmiller, April 19 2019 - 12:31 AM.



byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#4 Offline PaxxMantid - Posted April 17 2019 - 5:03 PM

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Thanks for those helpful comments.

 

I have already seen that when it got really warm, one of the mini hearths starting having condensation and I could see how that could easily get out of control.

 

As for creating a gradient, I am not really seeing how you can make much of a gradient using a space heater of ceramic - they are very broad heating areas. With a cable, sure, but even then it's a tiny minihearth so hard to imagine much of a gradient. I'd say there's a 1 degree gradient at most in the formicarium. But, they seem happy. Using an overhead, hanging ceramic bulb I'm not sure how much better I can do. 



#5 Offline sirjordanncurtis - Posted April 17 2019 - 7:14 PM

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You could have a day/light cycle, but you also have to make sure that the nest stays preferably dark all the time.



#6 Offline drtrmiller - Posted April 18 2019 - 2:24 AM

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I have already seen that when it got really warm, one of the mini hearths starting having condensation and I could see how that could easily get out of control.

 

Condensation can only occur if the glass/plastic is much cooler than inside the nest.  If the glass/plastic is the same temperature as the inside of the nest, the water vapor in the air won't physically be able to lose enough energy to condensate into a liquid on a cooler surface.

 

The heat needs to be indirect such as from a space heater several feet away and pointed away from the ants.  In such a setup, avoid heating cables, heat pads, heat lamps, or other devices which provide local, direct heat.  The only way to avoid condensation is for the formicarium and all its parts to be the exact same temperature at all times.


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byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#7 Offline PaxxMantid - Posted April 18 2019 - 8:27 AM

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I have already seen that when it got really warm, one of the mini hearths starting having condensation and I could see how that could easily get out of control.

 

Condensation can only occur if the glass/plastic is much cooler than inside the nest.  If the glass/plastic is the same temperature as the inside of the nest, the water vapor in the air won't physically be able to lose enough energy to condensate into a liquid on a cooler surface.

 

The heat needs to be indirect such as from a space heater several feet away and pointed away from the ants.  In such a setup, avoid heating cables, heat pads, heat lamps, or other devices which provide local, direct heat.  The only way to avoid condensation is for the formicarium and all its parts to be the exact same temperature at all times.

 

 

Unfortunately, because of the locations of my formicarium, it's not possible to do a space heater to heat the entire environment.  The heatlamp seems to work well and since the colonies are 36 inches from the bulb, there doesn't seem like there is all that much gradient or hot/cold spots in this setup. Using a laser thermometer, it seems like a variance of <1 f is happening from the top of the mini-hearths to the bottom.

 

That's why I can't seem to figure out why there is condensation on this one colony, and not the others. These worked very hard as they were going into diapause, moving sand around, and apparently blocking the tiny cracks between the nest and the glass. Also the piled sand over about half the water tower. Just a few days ago I started to see condensation - it happened suddenly, no change in the environment. The whole front was covered in condensation. Because they were covering the water tower, I thought maybe they need more ventilation so I took the nestmate (which was full of water) and emptied it and put it in as a vent. After 48 hours, the condensation is reduced, but not that much. 

 

It's really strange, I can't seem to figure this out. There are 2 identical setups inches away and they are completely free of condensation. 



#8 Offline PaxxMantid - Posted April 18 2019 - 8:34 AM

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trying to upload a 100k jpg image, but it's saying 'Error You aren't permitted to upload this kind of file''   - strange!



#9 Offline drtrmiller - Posted April 19 2019 - 12:33 AM

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Unfortunately, because of the locations of my formicarium, it's not possible to do a space heater to heat the entire environment.  The heatlamp seems to work well and since the colonies are 36 inches from the bulb, there doesn't seem like there is all that much gradient or hot/cold spots in this setup. Using a laser thermometer, it seems like a variance of <1 f is happening from the top of the mini-hearths to the bottom.
 
That's why I can't seem to figure out why there is condensation on this one colony, and not the others. These worked very hard as they were going into diapause, moving sand around, and apparently blocking the tiny cracks between the nest and the glass. Also the piled sand over about half the water tower. Just a few days ago I started to see condensation - it happened suddenly, no change in the environment. The whole front was covered in condensation. Because they were covering the water tower, I thought maybe they need more ventilation so I took the nestmate (which was full of water) and emptied it and put it in as a vent. After 48 hours, the condensation is reduced, but not that much. 
 
It's really strange, I can't seem to figure this out. There are 2 identical setups inches away and they are completely free of condensation.


Before I ever studied the topic, I too thought it acceptable to heat one side of a formicarium, test tube, or other container.  The problem is that ants typically favor setups with poor ventilation, which is why you have observed the ants using small particles to "seal" any small gaps where air may otherwise enter.  Consequently, when you are providing direct heat to one side of the formicarium, any nest or container with a high relative humidity will begin to produce condensation almost immediately when the heat source is turned off, moved, or the environment becomes cooler, thereby decreasing the temperature of the formicarium glass/plastic.

Condensation is not random, it is able to be calculated mathematically with 100% accuracy—we call the conditions under which water vapor condenses in response to changes in temperature, "dew point."

As an example, at >98% relative humidity (RH), if the temperature of the glass becomes merely 1 °F less than the temperature inside the nest, water will begin to condense onto the coolest available surface—in your case, the front glass.  At 86% RH, you have about 5 °F tolerance before water begins to condense onto the glass.  At 70% RH, you have about 10 °F tolerance.

 

This means that at extremely high relative humidities, you have virtually no thermal tolerance for inhibiting condensation in poorly ventilated nests.  And lower humidities may be infeasible in small setups, because eggs typically require the most RH to avoid drying out (86%), and pupae the least.  In many cases, a relative humidity gradient is probably a more important feature in a formicarium than a temperature gradient.

 

The small vent you added, which is attached to tubing, may help a little to decrease the relative humidity, but only if the output—the water vapor going out of the vent—exceeds the input—water vapor produced by the "water tower," respirating ants, and other sources of humidity inside the nest.  Try to keep the RH inside the nest between 70-86%, and avoid directly heating only one side or surface.

 

Finally, keep in mind that a heat lamp emits infrared heat that is absorbed by water, energizing it and evaporating it, thereby pushing the RH further upwards, which may almost certainly exacerbate any condensation issues you're having.  So I continue to recommend the optimal setup of a dedicated small room, such as a closet or bathroom, in which a space heater would be able to economically maintain a set temperature (especially accurately with an inexpensive temperature controller), thereby avoiding any hot/cold spots and temperature swings which are responsible for your condensation issues.


Edited by drtrmiller, April 19 2019 - 11:47 AM.



byFormica® is the manufacturer of the iconic nectar feeders and Sunburst Ant Nectar.
byFormica ant products always deliver consistent performance, convenience,
and reliability, making them among the most beloved ant foods and kit enjoyed by
ant keeping enthusiasts worldwide. For more information, visit www.byFormica.com.

#10 Offline Barristan - Posted April 19 2019 - 3:13 PM

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If I use a heating pad I only heat from the glass side, so condensation at the glass only takes place at parts which aren't heated up. It only gets a little bit annoying if I want to take a video because if I remove the heating source condensation will start at the glass and after some minutes you don't see anything...

 

As for day/night cycle: I personally don't switch off heating pad during night, I only switch  it off if room temperature is already very high.



#11 Offline Carpenter - Posted April 22 2019 - 8:08 AM

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I have already seen that when it got really warm, one of the mini hearths starting having condensation and I could see how that could easily get out of control.

 

Condensation can only occur if the glass/plastic is much cooler than inside the nest.  If the glass/plastic is the same temperature as the inside of the nest, the water vapor in the air won't physically be able to lose enough energy to condensate into a liquid on a cooler surface.

 

The heat needs to be indirect such as from a space heater several feet away and pointed away from the ants.  In such a setup, avoid heating cables, heat pads, heat lamps, or other devices which provide local, direct heat.  The only way to avoid condensation is for the formicarium and all its parts to be the exact same temperature at all times.

 

 

Unfortunately, because of the locations of my formicarium, it's not possible to do a space heater to heat the entire environment.  The heatlamp seems to work well and since the colonies are 36 inches from the bulb, there doesn't seem like there is all that much gradient or hot/cold spots in this setup. Using a laser thermometer, it seems like a variance of <1 f is happening from the top of the mini-hearths to the bottom.

 

That's why I can't seem to figure out why there is condensation on this one colony, and not the others. These worked very hard as they were going into diapause, moving sand around, and apparently blocking the tiny cracks between the nest and the glass. Also the piled sand over about half the water tower. Just a few days ago I started to see condensation - it happened suddenly, no change in the environment. The whole front was covered in condensation. Because they were covering the water tower, I thought maybe they need more ventilation so I took the nestmate (which was full of water) and emptied it and put it in as a vent. After 48 hours, the condensation is reduced, but not that much. 

 

It's really strange, I can't seem to figure this out. There are 2 identical setups inches away and they are completely free of condensation. 

 

 

I recommend a small 5W heating pad placed on top of the formicarium (or wherever works to create a gradient) 






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